[SeattleUte]

Wouldn't it be great if we knew what "succeeding in Iraq" or "things are getting better in Iraq" even meant. What I hear now is just talk about saving face, "now that we're there we can't give up." I suppose this means because like Hezbollah did after Israel retreated from Lebanon our enemies will declare victory and humiliate us, and raise the moral of more incipient enemies. So what's the end game? When can we say we won? What does that mean? What will be the signs that we "won"?

The whole notion of "democracy" being the objective in Iraq was from its inception either fraudulent or extremely self-deluded. Like that is an easy thing to do; just look at how many peoples have successfully pulled off "democracy" in the 100,000 years humans have had our sized brains. If they have a kit for it (I loved Waters' analogy) I'm sure the Russian people would like to pick one up. Our going there ostenisbly to create democracy must have sounded so surreal to educated Arabs, considering that the Sadis, our best friends over there after Israel, conduct public beheadings after only minimal kangaroo trials. Democracy my ass.

One of the best things I've heard about Iraq was said by Rudy Giulaini. He said that the big mistake was not focusing first on making sure the people had electicity, water, food, basic safety. Do whatever you have to do to retain order and render creature comforts. Worry about democracy after that gets mastered. Get at least a high school education before you try to write a scientific treatise.