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Originally Posted by Archaea
Instead of swiping at me, address the argument. Are civil liberties not about making government prove its case and about protecting the innocent?
What is fallacious about that argument?
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Yes, civil liberties are about making government prove its case and about protecting the innocent. Even me and my "Javascript" (which is not what I do, by the way) can see that.
The question is whether or not the Patriot Act appreciably abridges those rights.
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Originally Posted by FMCoug
I think very few people who are concerned about the Patriot Act and the resulting loss in civil liberties are referring to the detainees in Gitmo. What concerns me is how the Patriot Act impacts American citizens, stateside, in their own homes.
As to NorCal's original question, I guess the whole habeas corpus thing was really just a minor benefit, not a civil libert. That's just one example.
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I think Gitmo comes up within about 14 seconds of any discussion on civil liberties, so I have to disagree with you there.
As to the Patriot Act, I'd like to hear of some real violations--and not just individual cases. I want to hear about broad denial of civil liberties to statistically significant numbers of Americans, such that we can say "our" rights have been curtailed.
Lastly, so far as I know, no American citizen has been denied habeas corpus. Do you know otherwise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMCoug
I don't know. But the bottom line is there is a law on the books that says the governemnt can choose to take it away form anyone they want to by simply declaring them an "enemy combatant". That' is too much unchecked power IMO.
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I don't think it's that easy.
I'll add, parenthetically, that the Patriot Act was passed by a majority of Congressmen, twice. And despite the hot air you hear from the Left, I'd bet it would still pass (though in modified form) a Democrat Congress.