[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I don't really know if it is involuntary or not. However, I see nothing positive arising from the relationship, at least nothing net positive.

Each time this topic comes up, you use this same line of reasoning ("there is no net benefit to society..."). Seems like an awfully weak argument to justify discrimination. What is the net benefit to society of being blind, having blue eyes, or being left-handed? You can do better than this.

Originally Posted by Archaea

And don't bore me with "love and harmony" crap. That can exist without sex. Platonic relationships exist the world round.

This one kills me. For a guy with such a long history of bemoaning the frigidity of LDS women, I find it highly ironic to see you suddenly become such a cheerleader for platonic relationships.

Originally Posted by Archaea

So what are we to believe if that drive is not given for procreation, those want to use it where it's physiologically impossible to procreate by design? I really don't have the answers, but just cuz somebody else claims "it's involuntary, it's natural doesn't make it so."

You are oversimplifying things. There are lots of studies pointing to a biological cause.

Originally Posted by Archaea

And even if it is a natural impulse, Dahmer claimed it to be a natural impulse. The naked argument of "natural impulse" with no net social benefit is not a winner of an argument.

Nor is your comparison of homosexuality to being a serial killer.

Originally Posted by Archaea

Now the pragmatist in me says, let them go do their thing, just don't charge me for it. Yet they do. They want additional insurance benefits and the costs of fighting AIDS and other social costs of their risky behavior. And intellectually, their argument is bereft of logic, other than this: "look if it feels good do it, and if it feels real good, do it some more."

This is where you really sound more like ExUte than Archea. You begrudge the cost of fighting AIDs? Aren't you aware that the vast majority of AIDS cases are spread by hetero sex (particularly in Africa)? This disease is causing unbelievable suffering in Africa and children are the hardest hit.

Originally Posted by Archaea

"To hell with social consequences, we should be able to hump and hump and make everybody pay for our health consequences even though our bodies are not designed to do what we do."

I would respect this argument.

Hey, we don't know why it occurs, we don't know if it's involuntary, something psychological, something physiological in the womb, but hey we don't care. We like getting our rocks off that way and to hell with the rest of you.

That would be honest and direct. But to make it some social cause with dishonest, illogical arguments torques me.

"dishonest, illogical arguments", indeed. Oh, the irony.