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MikeWaters · 06-01-2011, 07:12 PM

1. Someone that likes a lot of attention?

2. Someone into self-promotion?

3. Exaggerates and sensationalizes in order to gain more attention and self-promote?

I just read through his Mormonstories conference powerpoint. Apparently his podcast/organization has reached enough of a critical mass that it can support such an enterprise.

Dehlin is proposing creating local communities of what he called "uncorrelated" Mormons. He defines "uncorrelated" as "disbelief and disengagement." He suggests this could be a new collective identity such as "Reform Judaism." I think he means Jews that don't really believe. Cultural Jews. Jew-ish, but not Jewish. Mormon-ish instead of Mormon.

One might think that someone like me would be a prime candidate to affiliate with such a movement. Some may consider me a "liberal Mormon" if that is the right phrase. In fact, this forum Cougarguard.com was started because cougarboard.com would not allow free and open discussion of Mormon religious topics.

But Dehlin leaves me cold. He always has. Way before he proposed this alternative Mormon organization. Way before he became inactive. Back when he was, in his own words, trying to keep Mormons in the fold. I don't know that I can put my finger on the reason. However his being absorbs the vibrations of the universe, my being does not.

I'm not claiming any moral or spiritual superiority. Hell, it might be that I just don't care as much. I don't spend my days wringing my hands about all of this.

Having gone through the powerpoint, let me characterize a few of my complaints. One, Dehlin simplifies and caricaturizes Mormons in ways that I don't think are entirely accurate. It's not that some aspects of his stages don't hold water--it's just that he ignores the overwhelming richness, complexity, and diversity of beliefs in the Mormon church. With more experience in life, and having had more conversations, I have come to realize that there are so many different ways that people approach this religion. This "true believer" is a bit of a straw man and doesn't reflect what is actually going on in my opinion. I think one can make a legitimate argument that there aren't enough venues or opportunities to really explore these rich personal beliefs in the way our meetings are set up....but I would also say that's not necessarily the purpose of these meetings. Take some initiative and have some conversations with people.

One caveat to this. I was never a true believer type. Not from childhood even. So I don't have the personal experience of feeling like my "bubble" was popped. I have always considered and weighed the contradictions. No doubt there were more contradictions to consider as I got older.

Another thing I don't relate to is "extensive exposure to non-Mormons" leading to disaffection. I grew up in the minority, and most of my closest friends were not LDS.

Ok, my next complaint. Just how hard is it become disaffected/inactive? I acknowledge that it can be very trying on many levels to some people. But on the other hand, maybe as many as 50% of Mormons fit this category! It seems like there are plenty of people who feel perfectly fine just walking away! I've worked with young men. Plenty of them fall off the map the first moment they can. I have two brothers--one of them completely disaffected, and the other has either inactive or part-active his entire adult life. Just how hard is it?

Dehlin says "If you haven’t already become uncorrelated, you likely will, and the majority of your children or loved ones children most likely will." I suppose this statement is directed toward the attendees of his conference. He knows his audience, I don't. And given his audience, that may very well be correct. But I have to take some umbrage if he is extending that statement behind the circle of his acolytes.

Some of us have looked at this Mormon church, both in past and present form, and found a rich HUMAN tapestry. All things human are full of humanity, with both good and evil, truth and error. If Joseph Smith was very human, like myself, then I can relate to Joseph in a way that I cannot relate to someone else.

What you don't hear Dehlin talk about is the sublime, the charismatic, the gifts of the Spirit, the literal POWER AND PRESENCE OF GOD resting upon you through the mantle of His priesthood. Either you have faith in this or you don't. Dehlin might point to his statement that some people "never [receive] a spiritual witness." I agree with that. My father had a cousin that he befriended as an adult. He and his wife had been inactive for many years. I asked my father why he was inactive, and he told me that his cousin reported never feeling like he had received a spiritual witness despite his attempts. Just recently I ran into father's cousin in my stake, now an active and solid member of the church. I did not have the opportunity to discuss this with him, but I wonder if he did in fact, these many years later, have an experience that qualified in his heart/mind.

My mind often turns to the phrase "the fellowship of the Saints." An old friend used to use this phrase often. The magnetism that some of us feel in the presence of our fellow church members. That there is real power in the actual association. I believe that. I've felt that. All kinds of Saints--big, small, old, young, black, white, yellow, red, liberal, conservative, smart, dumb, and everything else you can think of. The breadth of humanity united to God, united to each other, of a common mind.

You can maintain your personal integrity in this church, no matter your stripes. This is a big tent. On very rare occasions, you may find yourself in awkward circumstances where it feels like paths may diverge. I think of the account of Juanita Brooks in the David O. McKay biography. She was told by an apostle that if she revealed that Lee had had his blessings reinstated, that they would be rescinded and she would be excommunicated. How incredibly hard that must have been for her. And what joy she felt when the mission president gave her the account of President McKay telling the apostle to let it alone. I believe the account was that she burst into tears on hearing this.

In each of our minds, we hold a construction of this thing we call the Mormon church. To some degree, we project our hopes, desires and fears on the church. And that is how we can come to a place where the church that is described by others does not feel like the church we know and attend.

I started by asking if John Dehlin is a drama queen. That is probably inappropriate language. Disparaging. Not giving him the benefit of the doubt. But what to make of it? A man that not long ago said he was trying to keep people in the church, and now arguing that these same people will all become disaffected, leave the church, and ought to start a separate organization?

How did it come to this? I don't know.

I wish him well. I wish all of you well. Most things rewarding do not come easy. I am reminded of the quote from the famous swordsman Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645): "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first." It surely is no coincidence that the word "faith" is often preceded by the word "trials." Everything I have ever learned came with a price. And I've paid enough that I'm still here in this church.

06-01-2011, 07:12 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	John Dehlin, drama queen? 1. Someone that likes a lot of attention? 2. Someone into self-promotion? 3. Exaggerates and sensationalizes in order to gain more attention and self-promote? I just read through his Mormonstories conference powerpoint. Apparently his podcast/organization has reached enough of a critical mass that it can support such an enterprise. Dehlin is proposing creating local communities of what he called "uncorrelated" Mormons. He defines "uncorrelated" as "disbelief and disengagement." He suggests this could be a new collective identity such as "Reform Judaism." I think he means Jews that don't really believe. Cultural Jews. Jew-ish, but not Jewish. Mormon-ish instead of Mormon. One might think that someone like me would be a prime candidate to affiliate with such a movement. Some may consider me a "liberal Mormon" if that is the right phrase. In fact, this forum Cougarguard.com was started because cougarboard.com would not allow free and open discussion of Mormon religious topics. But Dehlin leaves me cold. He always has. Way before he proposed this alternative Mormon organization. Way before he became inactive. Back when he was, in his own words, trying to keep Mormons in the fold. I don't know that I can put my finger on the reason. However his being absorbs the vibrations of the universe, my being does not. I'm not claiming any moral or spiritual superiority. Hell, it might be that I just don't care as much. I don't spend my days wringing my hands about all of this. Having gone through the powerpoint, let me characterize a few of my complaints. One, Dehlin simplifies and caricaturizes Mormons in ways that I don't think are entirely accurate. It's not that some aspects of his stages don't hold water--it's just that he ignores the overwhelming richness, complexity, and diversity of beliefs in the Mormon church. With more experience in life, and having had more conversations, I have come to realize that there are so many different ways that people approach this religion. This "true believer" is a bit of a straw man and doesn't reflect what is actually going on in my opinion. I think one can make a legitimate argument that there aren't enough venues or opportunities to really explore these rich personal beliefs in the way our meetings are set up....but I would also say that's not necessarily the purpose of these meetings. Take some initiative and have some conversations with people. One caveat to this. I was never a true believer type. Not from childhood even. So I don't have the personal experience of feeling like my "bubble" was popped. I have always considered and weighed the contradictions. No doubt there were more contradictions to consider as I got older. Another thing I don't relate to is "extensive exposure to non-Mormons" leading to disaffection. I grew up in the minority, and most of my closest friends were not LDS. Ok, my next complaint. Just how hard is it become disaffected/inactive? I acknowledge that it can be very trying on many levels to some people. But on the other hand, maybe as many as 50% of Mormons fit this category! It seems like there are plenty of people who feel perfectly fine just walking away! I've worked with young men. Plenty of them fall off the map the first moment they can. I have two brothers--one of them completely disaffected, and the other has either inactive or part-active his entire adult life. Just how hard is it? Dehlin says "If you haven’t already become uncorrelated, you likely will, and the majority of your children or loved ones children most likely will." I suppose this statement is directed toward the attendees of his conference. He knows his audience, I don't. And given his audience, that may very well be correct. But I have to take some umbrage if he is extending that statement behind the circle of his acolytes. Some of us have looked at this Mormon church, both in past and present form, and found a rich HUMAN tapestry. All things human are full of humanity, with both good and evil, truth and error. If Joseph Smith was very human, like myself, then I can relate to Joseph in a way that I cannot relate to someone else. What you don't hear Dehlin talk about is the sublime, the charismatic, the gifts of the Spirit, the literal POWER AND PRESENCE OF GOD resting upon you through the mantle of His priesthood. Either you have faith in this or you don't. Dehlin might point to his statement that some people "never [receive] a spiritual witness." I agree with that. My father had a cousin that he befriended as an adult. He and his wife had been inactive for many years. I asked my father why he was inactive, and he told me that his cousin reported never feeling like he had received a spiritual witness despite his attempts. Just recently I ran into father's cousin in my stake, now an active and solid member of the church. I did not have the opportunity to discuss this with him, but I wonder if he did in fact, these many years later, have an experience that qualified in his heart/mind. My mind often turns to the phrase "the fellowship of the Saints." An old friend used to use this phrase often. The magnetism that some of us feel in the presence of our fellow church members. That there is real power in the actual association. I believe that. I've felt that. All kinds of Saints--big, small, old, young, black, white, yellow, red, liberal, conservative, smart, dumb, and everything else you can think of. The breadth of humanity united to God, united to each other, of a common mind. You can maintain your personal integrity in this church, no matter your stripes. This is a big tent. On very rare occasions, you may find yourself in awkward circumstances where it feels like paths may diverge. I think of the account of Juanita Brooks in the David O. McKay biography. She was told by an apostle that if she revealed that Lee had had his blessings reinstated, that they would be rescinded and she would be excommunicated. How incredibly hard that must have been for her. And what joy she felt when the mission president gave her the account of President McKay telling the apostle to let it alone. I believe the account was that she burst into tears on hearing this. In each of our minds, we hold a construction of this thing we call the Mormon church. To some degree, we project our hopes, desires and fears on the church. And that is how we can come to a place where the church that is described by others does not feel like the church we know and attend. I started by asking if John Dehlin is a drama queen. That is probably inappropriate language. Disparaging. Not giving him the benefit of the doubt. But what to make of it? A man that not long ago said he was trying to keep people in the church, and now arguing that these same people will all become disaffected, leave the church, and ought to start a separate organization? How did it come to this? I don't know. I wish him well. I wish all of you well. Most things rewarding do not come easy. I am reminded of the quote from the famous swordsman Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645): "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first." It surely is no coincidence that the word "faith" is often preceded by the word "trials." Everything I have ever learned came with a price. And I've paid enough that I'm still here in this church.