The Fall: Agency vs. Knowledge of Good and Evil
 

I am a little confused about The Fall.

Here is what I think I understand ... Adam and Eve were in the garden. They were required to choose between one of two paths: (1) not partake of the fruit, stay in the garden forever, never know "good and evil," remain innocent, etc.; (2) partake of the fruit, leave the garden, know "good and evil," have kids, etc.

Presumably, then, they had agency before they partook of the fruit; otherwise, they would not have been able to choose between the two options. Correct?

Assuming they already had agency, what does it mean to have "knowledge of good and evil?" Does it mean "knowledge that good things and bad things will happen to you," or does it mean "some sort of increased agency that allows you to know the difference between right and wrong to a greater extent than you did before The Fall," or does it mean something else?

There could be no evil in the presence of God so Knowlege of it is probably just to experience it so they could know if they would rather serve God or serve the devil.

The trees and fruit may be literal ...
 

... but mainly they are figurative and symbolic. The tree of life represents at-one-ment with God and partaking of and being fully infused with His love. The tree of knowledge of good and evil is "illusion". It is the illusion of the natural man who thinks he knows the way things "ought to be". As long as man is partaking of the ToKoGaE, he CANNOT partake of the ToL. They are mutually exclusive. Our purpose is to learn to reject the fruit of the ToKoGaE and partake of the ToL. The natural man is constantly eating from the ToKoGaE because he lives in fear and false paradigms that motivate him. To be born again and baptized by fire is to change fundamentally and leave behind the illusions of the natural man (i.e., the fruit of the ToKoGaE) and partake in God's love as a spiritual being (i.e., partake of the ToL). The creation and the fall, etc. are parables about YOU, your history and your destiny. They are very important ones at that as they are found in all books of scripture and the temple. The events may be literal, but they are mainly symbolic.

If you want me to describe this another way, look at the dream of Lehi. Lehi depicts this very thing. The great and spacious is full of those partaking of the fruit of the ToKoGaE. Some embark on the path towards the ToL. A few make it back to the ToL, but most turn back to the ways of the natural man (i.e., go back to the great and spacious building/ partake of the fruit of the ToKoGaE). The reason why it is so difficult to make it to the ToL is because the Lord placed "cherubim and the flaming sword" to guard the way back to the ToL. Again, "cherubim and the flaming sword" is symbolic. It is symbolic of the gauntlet and purification one must go through to become sanctified and stand in the presence of the Lord and partake of the ToL. It isn't called a flaming sword for nothing. The "rod of iron" is the same. It is the chastening "rod" of the Lord that purifies you. Of course, this is a parable so all aspects can mean different things on different levels, but the rod of iron/cherubim and flaming sword is the purifying process of trials of faith of the Lord wherein we are made whole. Most do not make it through.

Dan, that is some good insight
 

I never thought I would say this about an ecumenical explanation, but dam Dan that made my nipples hard!

I'd be happy ...
 

... to do so again some time. :wink:

Re: The trees and fruit may be literal ...
 

r.f.

I personally think it is retarded to believe the fall of man came because Adam and Eve literally bit into a piece of fruit. I think it's a symbolic reference for something else. And we also don't know if that "fall" came after they had been in the Garden of Eden for 10 minutes or for 10 million years. I guess it all boils down to strict obedience to all things godly.

Re: The trees and fruit may be literal ...
 

1. Is the Church infallible? No.
2. What is the purpose of life? In part, to "do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them."
3. How does God give us commandments? "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secrets to his servants, the prophets."

Given the above, is it not logically consistent that what you claim (as if it's a negative thing) is in actual fact the truth?

Certainly, if you blindly did everything the Church tells you to do, do you honestly think this would put you in bad stead with the Lord?

If you earnestly sought to receive a spiritual witness of the truth of anything the Church teaches, through the divinely prescribed steps outlined in scripture, do you think you'd find yourself regularly at odds with the teachings of the Church?

Re: The trees and fruit may be literal ...
 

[quote="Robin"]Robin,

That is right, IMO. Man cannot trust him(her)self with the logic and reasoning of the natural man because the POV of the natural man is skewed to that which is carnal, sensual and devilish. I will tell you precisely what I believe one has to do to overcome this ... humble oneself and become as a child, meek and teachable. When one humbles oneself and opens his (her) heart to to whatever God desires even if it contradicts their paradigms and traditions of their fathers (which are really the paradigms and traditions of the natural man) God's spirit and love will begin to fill that soul. The person's eyes will be opened to the view of the spiritual man (i.e., the person will begin to taste the fruit of the ToL) and begin to see things as they really are, as opposed to how they seem to be to the natural man who is constantly partaking from the ToKoGaE.

Your question about trusting one's perceptions to understand God's will is a tough one to discuss in this manner. It is tough because you have to take this on faith. You have to believe that if you lower yourself in humility of body, mind and spirit before the Lord, the irrevocable and undeniable act of the Lord will be to bless you to go from a natural man state of 'while seeing, you see not' to viewing eternity through heavenly spectacles of the spiritual man. I know that is not an acceptable response for the person who wants to keep asking "but what do I have to do specifically, etc.". But that is all the answer I have to give because, as I said, you have to show faith to walk into a realm that you cannot see (humilty while expecting the Lord to guide your way) and believe the Lord will fulfill his end of the promise to truly help you understand spiritually and not as a natural man.

What I believe you will find in going down this path is more basic than you would imagine, yet deeper than most can really comprehend. Love God with all your heart. Love ALL others as you love yourself. The bestowal of God's love (i.e., charity) is the greatest gift he has to give. It is his greatest gift because GOD IS LOVE. If you partake of Him and His nature, you partake of eternal life. This bestowal of God's love will unavoidable change your perceptions and desires. But ... to even get there, you have to have faith to walk the strait and narrow and pass through the flaming sword so that this love can be bestowed upon you to complete your transformation to a new being.

I too believe many (most) LDS believe the will of the Lord is synonymous to 'the church'. I find this disheartening. The church is merely a tool of God to help us along in this transformation, no more. A means to an end, if you will. But the reality is that most in the church and elsewhere are "natural man", so this type of mentality should not be suprising in the least. the great and spacious building has LOTS of space, even though is is illusion and without foundation.

Re: The trees and fruit may be literal ...
 

Methinks Robin occasionally gets burned by Cherubim's sword in the shorthairs.....;) Run the gauntlet Oh Robin!

Why does the practice concern you so? I am more concerned by leaders exercising unrighteous dominion with their "advice" or "instructions" than I am with faithful following or blind obedience.