My opinion on the change in the honor code
 

This change is long overdue. The change finally puts the honor code in line with the position of the church. Now we just need to get the membership of the church to embrace this thought process.

I think it is a joke that the honor code was out of line with church teachings for so many years.

what changes were made to the honor code?

Football players on the two-deep are now exempt.

Premarital sex is still verboten, but goalies are now allowed to use their hands.

I think mpfunk is referring to the article in the Trib:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5684555

Nice.

I finally read the actual change in the text of the Honor Code, and maybe I'm a little dense, but I don't see much of a difference.

What kind of behavior would be punished under the old policy that would not be punished now? Example?

Apparently, if you told someone that you have same sex attraction, then they could turn you into the HC.

Of course, I have a hard time seeing a gay student at BYU telling that kind of secret to very many people, and if they did, it would probably be to a friend that wouldn't then stab them in the back by turning them into the HC.

IMO, this rewording has some modest symbolic value, but very little practical value.

The text before (from the SL Trib article):

"Brigham Young University will respond to student behavior rather than to feelings or orientation. . . . Advocacy of a homosexual lifestyle (whether implied or explicit) or any behaviors that indicate homosexual conduct, including those not sexual in nature, are inappropriate and violate the Honor Code."

So based on the text before, I don't know how you can kick someone out for admitting they have homosexual tendencies, unless they are advocating homosexuality by promoting it as morally acceptable, which is also against the rules in the new Honor Code.

I see absolutely no change in the content.

Well, that's how I read it too, but I was just trying to explain how it was interpreted by others that saw the rewording as significant.

My opinion on the honor code has pretty much stayed the same. I don't particularly care what it falls in line with. If you sign it and say you'll live by the standards, then don't be surprised if you are kicked out when you don't.

I lived in Provo for a couple of years while attending UVSC and never understood why people worked so hard to get into BYU only to get there and bitch about the honor code.

When I was at Ricks, President Bednar at the time basically got up at devotional and said, "I've heard a lot of complaining about our honor code. If you don't feel you can live it, there are plenty of other places to go to school that you can have a good experience at." In other words, if you don't like it, leave.

Should we use it as something to drive people away? Certainly not, but people who go to school at places that have an honor code and willingly choose to sign it, should live by it, or face the consequences. There are enough people that want to go to BYU that those that don't want to be there because of the honor code would not be missed.

I don't get the "if you come to BYU you have no right to advocate for change."

Having attended BYU, I know BYU is supremely uninterested in my opinions.

If you aren't interested in my opinion, please don't be interested in my money.

I'm happy to donate to the Perpetual Education Fund, however.

Perhaps it is more of a "we know what we're doing better than you know what we're doing". Not saying that is right or wrong, but given who the decision makers are, they probably don't think they need student or faculty input.

It has also has its roots in the tradition of Ernie Wilkerson, who was paranoid of the Vietnam era protests. One must also remember the Commie paranoia that pervaded the country during the 1950s to understand BYU. These sentiments have never really fully departed froom the administrative folks there.

Yes, there is priestcraft going on. "I'm a priesthood leader therefore my administrative decisions are not to be questioned." Bateman was a master of this.

It's their right to have this attitude. It's my right to say that I don't like it and won't support it.

I'm confident that my view will eventually prevail. But probably 100 years later than it should.

Hmm.... That's a fascinating argument from a Ute fan. But it obfuscates the point. Very few ever argue that if someone signs the honor code then they should not be bound to live by it. It's more useful to debate whether the honor code is ultimately in the best interests of the university and students. And whether it ought to be tweaked.

What's interesting is that if you research the history of the honor code, you will learn that it was originally proposed by a group of students back in the 50's (brown-nosers, no doubt). They went on a campaign to promote it and got lots of students across campus to sign it. It eventually got adopted university-wide and has evolved over the years.

So if a group of students got it started, why is there an attitude among some that it cannot be questioned by students?

Personally, I think the honor/dress code is a relic of the 50's. Teach correct principles and let the students conduct their lives in private like every other member of the church. Righteous living should be organic and done for the right reasons, not so that one can avoid getting booted out of school.

Students know before they come to BYU what the standards are. It's not like these rules were foisted upon them midstream.

I think an honor code in some form is a good thing, however the nazi strict nature of it now and the policing of it is an embarrassment for the University.

People think that Homosexuals are the only ones walking around on egg shells down there. I've known many people who've been in relationships having sex outside of marriage, or to some that appears that others might be and even the appearance of that can send you to the OC Office and get dragged through a lengthy process that is unwarranted all because some A-hole thought or heard that you might've been doing something you shouldn't be...and that makes the person feel like at every turn the Gestapo is out to bust them.

They need to relax the dress standards a lot. Creating a bunch of "I, Robots" isn't and shouldn't be the goal.

They need to let the Bishops of the wards down there do their jobs and take care of the personal needs and situations of the students just like they would in any home ward.

The living standard expectations are already pummeled into their mind all growing up. I don't mind a version of an honor code, but not one that constantly creates a looking over their shoulder type of atmosphere that is prevalent down there.

I've never been a student there, and never would've fit in, because I like to grow my goatees, like to stay out late sometimes and in general am not kosher on a bunch of California punk tranpslants or Utah County-ites acting like they've suddenly been endowed by the swift signing of a over bearing code that turns them into fake peter priesthoods and mollys.

My opinion: we should have the Honor Code but no Honor Code Office. There should be no snitching, policing, or booting. If it's called an "Honor" code, then the enforcement should be by one's honor.

lol..that is funny.

I remember the one time I hiked the Y with some friends who were attending the Y at the time. Little did I know at the time, that hiking up there was a place where many couples would escape to perform their own personal Calls of the Wild.

What is the purpose of having an Honor Code then? It would be like one of those Democratic non-binding resolutions that they keep passing.

Certainly there could be some substantial improvement on the enforcement end, but to claim you have an Honor Code and then not have any institutional enforcement would be even more hypocritical than it is now.

Like I said in my response to DrumNFeather, that is not the point. No one here is arguing ignorance of the honor code as an excuse for not living it.

(there is some irony here considering that yesterday you called me "a charter member of the peanut gallery")

Wow.

Tell me: in what other areas of life do you think we need more "external enforcement" in order to ensure righteous living?

I see your patronizing undertones in regard to me being a Ute fan, but I'm not just any Ute find mind you, I'm an Active LDS Ute Fan (ALUF). {Cue Response: Those are the worst kind}

My point is similar to Indys point. The honor code doesn't sneak up on anyone and it's not like they don't know what they are getting into.

What I'm interested in is why someone would put so much hard work and effort into getting into BYU only to get there and spend his or her time resisting the rules in place...when he or she knew full well the rules when he or she applied and got in.

That pretty accurately describes your participation on Cougarboard.

Aren't we as members of the church already required to live an honor code so to speak? The only time we're required to sign anything as members is your own temple recommend. That's it.

I'm not saying get rid of the Honor Code cause I think it does some good, but it's also overbearing in some un-neccessary ways.

Having said that I don't exactly feel sorry for someone who goes in with both eyes open, signs it, and then bitches and moans about it. If you don't want to sign it, then don't go to BYU.

Hey, don't get me wrong. I think you are great. Sorry if I offended.

So getting into BYU is such an incredible priviledge that once there, all students should just shut up and not discuss how BYU could be improved? Is that the education we want to give our youth?

What purpose does an Honor Code serve if there is nothing enforcement-wise to uphold the standards?

When I join a company, I receive an orientation that outlines the code of conduct expected by that company. If I fail to live by those guidelines, I could be subject to action taken against me by my employer.

If you honestly think there should be no enforcement of the BYU Honor Code, then you should also be claiming there should be no Honor Code to begin with.

I think that is a question for a different thread because it speaks to the purpose of BYU and I'm certain the opinions are far and wide in that regard.

I see the point that you and waters are trying to make, I'm just not sure the administration much cares if its students think that the honor code is too strict and would like to see it changed.

Further, I think that BYU admin and some alum, Read: John Haddow (among others), do indeed think that it is a privelage to attend BYU and as such, are confident that the line is long enough to get in that a few dissatisfied customers walking away areirrelevant.

I think a more accurate synopsis of what DrumNFeather and I are saying is that you can't justify breaking the Honor Code simply because you don't agree with some of the fine print.

I don't think either of us is saying you can't or shouldn't try to responsibly voice your opinion about how to improve the HC.

Does the AFA have an honor code office? I don't know.

I would favor abolition of the HCO, as it is the primary source of my complaint, not the concept of an honor code.

Most institutions of higher learning have an honor code, but I imagine few have an HCO.

If you get rid of the HCO....how do you "police" the honor code?

I say leave it up to the Bishops of those wards. Then again, for those who aren't LDS, then how is the subject approached?

It is a privilege to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Should we have an enforcement of the Church to ensure compliance with the commandments and to ensure compliance with our temple covenants? Should we record for the bishop our every action and adopt some McCarthylike organization to make certain we're not Commies?

Bishops and ecclesiastical leaders.

The Honor Code as adopted was not adopted out of some nobel purpose, but in response to the GIs returning home from WWII, and hanging out at BYU. It was also tightened by Ernie "McCarthy" Wilkerson so that he could spy on Commies and to stop any students from protesting the Vietnam War.

These things were not done out of nobel intentions, but rather out of political extremism on the part of administration. To be certain, the Board of Trustees had to approve, but Ernie could get them to do what they wanted. Now, it's ingrained within the culture, and we have accepted it as part of our culture. It is NOT something arising out of the Gospel. Its enforcement is the antithesis of Gospel principles.

The idea of "policing" the honor code is pretty unique to BYU. Virginia, for example, has an honor code, but the students are expected to be self-enforcers. You can say, "that is dumb- then people will just cheat and break the rules," but really all you are saying is that BYU trusts its students less than Virginia does to do what they are supposed to do.

Sorry, but I don't buy your assertion that those are equivalent arguments. I think my earlier example of conduct in the workplace is a better analogy.

If you don't support BYU's policies, don't send them extra money.

This is what the vast majority of BYU grads do. But probably not for that reason.

It's really not an honor code. It's just a code. Let's stop using the word "honor" because it's misleading.