Fairy tales too scary, and/or not PC enough
 

So say British parents.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/us_wo...-For-Kids.html

Brits are wussies. German kids get to meet Struwwelpeter.

Snow White is one of the most offensive stories I know.

This is such bullshit. It makes my blood boil. I read my little kids artful retellings of Beowulf, the Iliad, the Odyssey, not to mention Jack in the Beanstock. They're full of bloodshed.

In fact, that's why kids like them.

:confused:

It's pretty appalling.

Are we speaking of the fairytale or the porno flick, because i'm missing something here?

trying to figure out if this is a really bad pun or not.

I thought it was a rather good pun, myself.

It is and was. :-)

What's not to love? You've got the implication that a woman must be young and beautiful, white as a dove, and pure as the driven snow. When at home she makes herself comfortable by cleaning up after seven slovenly men, singing arias while doing so. In her spare time she darns their socks.

Like Eve before her, Snow White is too weak to resist temptation and partakes of a poisoned fruit. She awaits redemption in the form of a dashing young prince.

Well, when you put it that way, it was obviously a sexist pig, who desired to enslave women for his own sexual purposes. How did I miss that one.

you've left off the whole part about how all the stepmother really wants is to be the most beautiful, and when she's not, she attempts (repeatedly) to have her daughter murdered. Beauty competitions at their most brutal.

"Cut out her heart and bring it to me."

In the original, I don't think she knew it was her daughter until the end, though.

I didn't know that about the original. I guess it makes a more dramatic finish. Still, hating women for the beauty you seek to cultivate yourself and competing in terms of phyiscal appearance is a theme that's still pervasive. I'm sincere when I say I agree it's not a story I want children to read.

Some folks read too much into things.

Yeah, I don't see why we should carefully consider the themes or content of stories we read to our children.

You don't have to consider them if you deny that they exist.

If we don't screen the television babysitter, why the heck should we bother with their literature? Geeze get with the program.

Interesting question. Should we screen literature of this type? What about TV crap like the Disney channel. It tends to be very careful about avoiding sexit or racist plots and dialogue, but man does it serve up a heaping pile of steaming crap for kids. I cetainly acknowledge the themes of many fairy tales are not modern ones, but I am not sure avoiding the fairy tales, esepcially the actual grimm versions, which are usually quite different than the Disny-fied versions, is the answer.

Yes, btw, we did read the actual tales to our kids. We tended to counter the impact of the themes by discussion and example. Mom is educqted and works. we don't take an axe and kill wolves or dogs. It is only a story. I think a child's cultural life should include these great tales of the past.

See, I was thinking this yesterday.

The themes that RHG and I mentioned permeate every aspect of our society. So while sure, we can throw out Snow White, it doesn't prevent our kids from seeing the four dozen magazine covers at the grocery checkout, every one of which features an airbrushed woman on the front, or the commercials that come on in between the Disney Channel shows, in which twelve year old girls are dolled up in leopard print and gogo boots, or the reality shows in which women compete against each other for the hand of prince charming. The messages we disagree with are out there everywhere. The key is not to hide from them, it's to point out what we disagree with and why.

That doesn't change the fact that I can't stand Snow White -- Grimm or Disney.

Incidentally, this thread reminds me of that weird movie about the Grimm brothers. That was too bizarre.

Rock a bye baby in the tree top.....

Not all fairy tales are bad, IMO. Take a story like the Ugly Duckling, for example, which has a beautiful message. Take Hansel & Gretel, which is scary and dark but generally devoid of social commentary (at least that I can remember--I haven't read it lately).

But what is redeeming about Snow White? I just plain single that one out and wish to remove it from the canon. At least my canon.

I agree that the themes in Snow White are elsewhere, and I don't ingore them. If I did, I would probably not be engaged in this conversation, as I would shrug my shoulders and say things like "you are reading too much in." So it's a delicate thing, to seek to navigate through the waters of sex, sexism, superficiality, mindless entertainment, etc. and discern what is worthwhile and what is not. My point in general is that it's worth considering, as a parent or as a person. And not all fairy tales pass muster.

Meaningless nonsense. Obviously, parents should.

I simply think you're overreacting. If the so-called negative stereotypes of Snow White threaten your children's psyches, God help them when they finally have to enter the real world.

Heck, there's even charges of racism thrown at Star Wars, for heaven's sake. You can find a problem with anything, if you're looking for it.

Wasn't there a book of politically correct fairy tales a decade or two ago? I should look that up again. This discussion has been had many times over through the years.

Tell me, Tex, since you seem to have the magic 8 -ball. Is it possible to find entertainment that is not acceptable? Apparently, you are saying, I am not capable of making such judgments, since I apparently just choose to be offended.

No, I didn't say you were incapable of making such judgments. Rather, I think your judgment is wrong.

Are you under the mistaken impression I have no discriminating tastes when it comes to children (or adults, for that matter)?

I have never liked the Snow White story either, but I lean more towards creekster's line of thinking. I'm not ready to give up reading myths, legends, and fairy tales to my kids. I'm reading a book of old Japanese children stories to them right now, and I guess I like the feeling of connection to that culture.

I'd be more concerned if my daughter started watching Hannah Montana (is that the Disney show?) or reading Teen Vogue. So far we have escaped the Disney princess phase, and I'm happy with that.

Two things:

First, I agree with you completely. Hannah Montana is of the devil.

Second, I apologize for the crude imagery I used in my post. For some reason seeing you quote it makes me feel guilty. Sorry.

I (and BG) made several statements about reasons why I find that story offensive. I stand by those, regardless of who agrees.

Your responses have been to call my points "nonsense" or "reading too much in." You have not defended the story or explained why your judgment about its redeeming value is correct or ourweighs the concerns I express, if you are willing to concede they are real (which I doubt). Such information would allow me to see how these decisions are made, at which point an actual dialogue could occur. I know this is not your style, and as such, I conclude. Why must so many posts in which you participate end this way? And I mean that rhetorically. No response necessary.

So do you let Hannah Montana in? Or just counterbalance it by your example? Do you watch it enough to know the content? I've never actually seen the show, although I know it's everywhere. What are the objections you have? How do you counterbalance them?

While I have great personal distatse for the disney shows, I tend not to ban things from my house unless they are clearly over the line. If ind the problems with the Disney products much like those you sem to feel about Snow white. They are an insidious influence that undermiones some of the values I hold dear. To be more precise, I think they tend to encourage a sense of entitlement, discourage hard work, show disregard for the timportance of family (other than in a tidy wrap it up at the end of an episode way) make parents look stupid, and the music is really bad.

AS others pointed out, however, kids get this in genreal from a lot of sources We try (and have tried) to teach good prinicples, to expose the kids to better quality materials and to emphasize the good and quality wherever possible. We limit TV in gerneral and prohibit anything that sems too violent or too sexually explicit, but do not ban much else. As with all thignsd, the rules and guidance changes in scope and focus depending on the age and capacity of the child.

To tel you the truth, if I was smart, I would probably not have a TV.

I say let it all hang out, so truth and error can wrestle before their immature little minds.

My primary objection to HM is the clothing line it has inspired. You've got four year olds dressing in Britney-style sexy little pop star outfits. Four year olds should NOT be dressed in haltertops, black lace, and leopard print miniskirts. I swear parents are idiots.

Good point. I forgot about that, as my daughter is now a little older. But this is definitelty true.

Yes, four year olds should be dressed in Sooner Girl attire.

I'm sure your concerns are real, I simply disagree with them. And just so we're clear, I didn't call your concerns or your points nonsense. I called your sarcastic suggestion that parents shouldn't screen their children's entertainment rhetorical nonsense.

As for point-by-point defenses, I really don't care that much to "defend" Snow White. The prospect seems so silly to me as to deserve ridicule rather than seriousness. I suppose that's what annoys you the most.

As portrayed in the Disney version, it's a cute, harmless little story that has entertained kids for decades. The points noted by Barbara about a white girl slavishly cleaning up after 7 bachelor slobs just make me literally laugh out loud. Adults get so wound up in their own prejudices and PC insecurities that they (IMO) forget that kids don't really care.

For me, it's like racist charges against Star Wars. Or that a Christmas tree or a "Merry Christmas" poster or a nativity scene threatens non-Christians or is discriminatory. Or that the Golden Compass is going to turn all our kids into atheists. It really makes me want to ask, "Don't you people have any real problems?"

There are battles worth fighting in entertainment. Pervasiveness of pornography. Violence on television. Excessive profanity and the resulting coarseness in society.

Sorry, but to me, Snow White is just not one of those missions. On the list of things that I consider threatening or detrimental to kids, Snow White and Hannah Montana fall way low on the list.

Tex, please take this as a sincere quesiton, but do you have children, and specifically do you have a daughter? I would have agreed with what you write here until I had kids and in aprticualr until I had a daughter. When my daughter was born I was suddenly aware unlike I had been before of a world full of subtle but powerful messages telling her what she is supposed to be good at, and what she is supposed to do and how she needs to behave. It suddenly bothered me a lot more than it ever did before.

I would not censor the snow white sotry, as I said before, but I can certainly understand the reasons RHG might think she would want to do it.

I agree censoring these stories probably isn't the answer, but placing your daughters in positions of power within the family and denuding her of the emphasis on looks for success may be the proper place to start. How the hell should I know though, as my two daughters emphasize appearance as much as anybody else.

I remember my daughter number one's first experience with soccer at some tender age, and father A was somewhat impatient with her running daintily on the field, shouting, "stop running like a girl."

To which the retort was, "but Daddy, I am a girl."

Exactly. I'm glad I only have boys. All I have to worry about are the annual visits to the ER.