Missionary work in the USA is suffering
 

Bart Oates came and spoke to us as a counselor in a mission presidency. He is a former BYU football star, and played for the Giants and 49ers. He mentioned that convert baptisms in the USA are flat (I actually don't remember if he said that this was the case for the entire USA, or just the South). Then he said that in the Southwest, one of the fastest growing regions in the USA, that convert baptisms are actually DOWN. I believe he was speaking in absolute numbers, not percentage increases.

We have a good product in the form of the gospel. However I don't think we have a good product in the form of our wards.

In other words, I think the church is failing at the social level. In fact, I think wards have much less meaning, in the social context, in 2008, than they did 25 years ago. Part of this comes from only putting 1% of local tithing back into church activities. Is there any church that puts in less, and hopes to have a thriving community? We do very well for how cheap we are, but we still suffer.

I hope the gains we have made in other areas, like overseas building, extravagant temples, secular education, and urban revitalization will make up for this in ways that I can't see.

I'm no prophet. But I can see the obvious. And to me, it's obvious that wards as social units have suffered and diminished.

Part of the problem, at least in the mission I live in, is that the missionaries are not being allowed to interact with the members on the same level.

Currently, members are not allowed to have the missionaries in for a meal unless there is an investigator present. The members are allowed to bring meals to the missionaries, or pay for their meals, but not eat with them unless there is a missionary purpose behind the visit.

The missionaries have been making the rounds in our ward teaching members the "lessons," but members frequently cancel for various reasons known only to them...but I think that many would be far more willing if they could plan a meal around the lesson...but maybe I'm wrong.

When missionaries can't interact with members and "BRT" (a concept that is not being taught in the MTC anymore...so I'm told), then the members are going to be far less willing to open up their homes and let the missionaries teach their friends.

As a recently called ward mission leader, it makes for some interesting meetings.

Sounds like the Mission President's rule. He must be from Idaho.

It is the mission president's rule, actually...and I have to be very careful when I discuss it with the elders so I'm not "questioning leadership," around them...one elder (from Idaho) tends to frown upon that.

I have no problem with this policy, because the amount of time wasted by missionaries eating dinner with members (which always happens to be the time that investigators are actually home) is staggering.

We had that rule on my mission. I support it. Of course I broke it from time to time as the Spirit directed.

When I was growing up we had a ward canoe trip every year. We all drove to San Marcos. It was great. I got to know a lot of families in that context. A sparsely attended pot-luck dinner in the gym is just not the same. All of this came to an end when the new budget rules went into effect.

I just mentioned the other day that for our ward 4th of July picnic a couple of years, we had a roasted pig. That would never happen anymore. Not enough money. And we weren't a rich ward either.

My MP was from Idaho, btw. And I support his rule. And I was always frown when my wife schedules the missionaries for dinner.

Btw, one thing that makes the Oates thing interesting, is that maybe finally the church is going to come forward and say "Things are not going so well. We need to regroup, retrench, and reconsider."

You've got to think that the top-down nature of the church wastes a lot of talent.

That's why I think caring what decisions are made, at the level of the organization of programs and wards, is such a waste of time. No one gives a damn what you think, unless you are God.

As far as cause and effect are concerned, I know too little to reach you the point Mike is with his suspicions.

As to the factual observations however, I agree that the wards probably don't function as well as they may have. Part of the problem there is the membership and part is the structure. I don't have an alternative structure or insights to add, as the problem seems unwieldy.

We're not as connected in the ward fabric as we once were. Are we the problem? Perhaps in part. Has society changed enough while the ward structure has not? Probably.

What are the solutions?

I agree that there is plenty of time wasted "camping," but it seems like a more effective way of enforcing something like this is to have the elders follow dinner up with a lesson (like they're doing in my ward now - the equivalent of the discussions) but make sure that they are limited to an hour for the whole thing or something. I'm just not sure it is a good thing to have a black and white policy on this kind of thing, when it is the only chance the missionaries have to build relationships with ward members and gain their trust.

Of course, then there's my branch with over 100 baptisms in the last 24 months with piss-poor retention numbers.

Obviously my MP had that rule and I missed the ward Christmas Party (on Christmas) due to it, and instead went out tracting as it snowed. I kept expecting we would meet "the Golden Investigator." Didn't happen.

Sometimes I didn't use the best judgement as a missionary.

The reason I don't have the missionaries over to teach an investigator, is because I don't have a friend who is an investigator.

I can't remember the last time I met someone who said "I'm looking for a church" or "I'm looking for a spiritual experience".

Bad times are going to come eventually. And then things will change.

That's why we need Romney to get elected; so missionary work can get that needed boost.

We need a better social product to take advantage of peoples' interest.

But if you did have a friend who was investigating and you were performing your "every member a missionary" duties, would you let the missionaries teach your friend if you didn't know the missionaries at all and hadn't interacted with them?

The biggest problem IMO is that the church allows wards/branches to get too big. The sense of community and cooperation works better with smaller unit sizes. People just get lost in the crowd with larger units.

That said, the resulting large increase in the number of units from such a change would put an enormous strain on the church to build enough buildings to house them all.

Very good observations.

In Utah or perhaps Idaho, wards seem to function well as they tend to mirror the community at large.

Outside of those regions, I'm not certain they do.

How to maintain a good use of resources, while promoting a sense of community.

What is a reasonable expectation to have?

None of my friends live in my ward. So there is the whole ownership issue. Which missionaries would teach? Where would they attend?

It's a mess. Loosening up the rules would help fellowship a ton.

There is likely truth to this, but being in urban wards for the past 10 years or so, I've not experienced it. My stake is the same size as it was probably 15 years ago.

Well, at that point you follow the spirit of the law...or you do your best with the opportunity the Lord has presented you. But I see your point.

Fundamentally, if you are not proud of your product, i.e. your worship community, you are not going to be motivated to share it.

The goal should be to improve communities (i.e. wards) so that members are more motivated to share.

What is the WRONG-HEADED way? Simply bully members that they are not being missionary-minded. But that's 99% of what we see.

I like this thread. Very constructive.

We live in a secular society where religion is legislated against in public areas, religious expression is restricted or outright forbidden in the workplace and live in a society that believes that it's best not to "discuss religion or politics".

The problem with sharing the gospel isn't a shame or lack of pride in our faith or our meetingplaces, it's everything in our society that is built around discouraging having faith and expressing faith.

Our society is in many ways, anti-religious. And if we follow the Euro trend it will become even more so. In Europe it is very bad taste to discuss religion in public or even in most private instances. It makes for a very difficult environment for religious discussions to occur. The internet may be the last refuge.

That's our current problem; our ward is huge, limiting the feeling of community or family. I'm hoping for changes that will bring us closer together.

Hence the stupidity of resorting solely to lecturer/audience formats for 3 hours.

You can change the structure within wards to make them less lonely places.

We've been in our ward now for 12.5 years and many of our friends have moved out, and the apartment dwellers come and go, so we feel as we've lost a good number of our family members and the loss is so much it may not be worth it to connect with people who may not be there next year. Perhaps that's a lazy way, but it's our sentiments.

Socially I have very little in common with most of my ward members. And being heterodox even if orthoprax makes it very awkward to discuss feelings. How does one connect in a large, mobile ward, under those circumstances? And because it is awkward to discuss faith with most workers where would I bring them?

But then there is the inherent correlation fear, a lack of control and possible division in the ranks. That's why I don't see those changes being implemented unless there is a correlation element added.

In Korea in some wards or branches, after church, they'd cook up a bunch of ramen and break out the ping pong tables and members would hang at the church for several hours. Made for a very tight community and very conducive to convert baptisms especially youth and young adults. Outside of Seoul where there were small branches the church was the hangout place for youth and young adults almost every day.

The main reason your stake isn't growing, IMO, is because of move outs. The surrounding stakes are growing fast right now as people move farther and farther away from the city.

I agree with Drum I am more likely to refer a friend to the missionaries that I know and that I have connected with, it takes a long time to build trust with a friend and for them to commit to speaking with the missionaries you dont want some boner to screw that up.

But I also agree with Mike in that how many people really have friends to refer?

I don't trust most of the missionaries that I have known in my wards. Most of them seem pretty robotic, many socially immature. When I was a ward missionary in a previous ward, I saw a lot of awkward moments.
I wonder how that factors in to success (or lack thereof) in more developed countries? Does the US and Europe expect more?

We have had one missionary with good social skills in the past 2 years. We had the elders over for dinner last month and it was the most awkward hour I've spent in months. They didn't speak unless spoken to. They answered every question with a terse one or two word answer (I learned quickly to avoid yes/no questions). I realize this is just my own personal experience but it really seems like the "raised bar" might be leaving some of the socially adept elders behind.

Hehe I wonder if that's true. It makes sense that the ones getting laid are more likely to be those with charisma. I know that some of the best companions I had were those who had a bunch of PTs. Even before they raised the bar, I'd say the majority of missionaries were socially inept, at least to the point that I wouldn't have wanted them talking to any of my friends.

definitely. charismatic elders think they can get away with anything. on my mission they're almost always most disobedient. the way I look at it, as long as they're baptizing, that's something to cheer about.

I was relatively socially inept, but due to divine intervention I had some very good converts.

I will admit my missionary experiences occured 40 years ago. How those experiences relate to the world now may be totally irrelevant.

That being said, when I was a DL the best baptizers were problem Elders when it came to the rules. NOt any commandments but the rules. They worked on P Day and would decide when they wanted P day. They never asked permission to leave their area. I finally asked them if they would fake it just for me so I wouldn't look so bad. They took that well and would call me and ask me if they could come over into my area. I would say yes and they would show up 5 minutes later. They lived 60 miles away.

One other Elder was a huge baptizer. He had 35 12 months into his mission. He later was exposed as a promo guy. One you would find running scams later in life.

On the other hand there were some great missionaries who kept all the rules and baptized. They mainly were from Idaho.

Not being entirely socially adept myself I suppose, I am not one to make that judgment.

However, I do note the elders enjoyed riding in my car, listening to "heathen" music and several of them even recognized Led Zepp, the Killers, ACDC and appreciated the finer points of music. Curiously several elders have requested to be placed on our meal ticket.

Anyone know if they teach this kind of stuff in the MTC? They certainly didn't when I was there.
1. Don't talk about yourself. Ask people questions about themselves.
2. Eat with your mouth closed.

Is it as bad as you imply?

The ones I've seen are normal, somewhat goofy, 19 to 21 year olds. What I am surprised is that I haven't met a BYU student among our missionaries. Some of them went to the U and some to Syracuse or in the East but nary a one to BYU.

My experience is limited to my experience.
Some are better than others, but mostly selfish 20 year olds. A few can carry on a conversation. Most that we had to dinner did not.
On the other hand, gals are a lot better at this.
And I've seen a good deal of bad table manners. A huge deal breaker to most people, I think.

In my last ward I got tired of having the missionaries over because I got tired of entertaining them and trying to keep conversations going. And then getting knocked up for names as they left an awkward dinner.