I already posted this on the board, but I kind of wanted
 

to get the Guard's take on this as well.

How strict would you beon the temple recommend issue when dating? I had a very interesting discussion with two friends yesterday.
Friend A has always been a card carrying member, and is now married.

Friend B has been card carrying in the past, but now has turned into a bit of a Jack Mormon, and has never been married.

They are both in their mid-thirties.

Friend A believes that if someone does not have a TR they should immediately be dismissed as a worthwhile option. If at some point down the road they regain their TR at that point in time they MAY be considered a worthwhile option. However, Friend A believes that someone who has always had a TR should look for a companion without any kind of "history or baggage" to marry, and therefore the repentant suitor should still be denied consideration.

Friend B believes that not being a card carrying member is a yellow light, not a red light, and a series of questions should be presented to the individual in question, in order to ascertain why there is no current TR. Friend B believes that factors to take into consideration include:
Nature of the issue
Length of time sans a TR
Age of the individual in question
Degree of honesty and willingness to be open about the issue
Steps being taken to correct the problem
Friend B's conclusion is that unless the individual is doing nothing to address some very serious trangressions they should still be considered a viable option.

Friend A believes that there are people who keep covenants, and people that break them and if they're already breaking covenants, it's time to turn and run.

Friend B believes that good people sometimes break covenants, and are oft times looking for a reason or motivation to get things back on track and be who they really want to be.

I'm kind of torn on this one. I was completely unable to take a side on the matter. I can see both sides of the argument. So what's your take?

My take is that I probably couldn't tolerate friend A. I think friend B has the reasonable approach.

At this point, I'd just take the first person to say yes.

so how does it come up in the course of dating?

"So do you have your temple recommend on you?"

An excellent question that was also discussed, and although it sounds odd, all of us had been in that situation where we were somehow made aware of the fact that someone we were dating, on a date with, interested in, being pursued by, etc. did not have a tr.

I was never aware of whether any of my dates had TRs.

I had one kinda-date who was driving and went through a half-dozen red lights, gratuitously. I'm pretty sure she didn't have a TR.

I think part of why I've been made aware is because I am a bit of a Molly Mormon, and pretty sure I put out that vibe. So I think they want to just get it out in the open, and find out upfront whether or not it's a deal breaker.

I think you'd be able to ascertain more info on someone after a few dates than the info of temple recommend yes or no would give you. Also I may be old fashioned, but love seems like it ought to have a place in this equation. Also friend A is a beeotch and her friendship is no doubt bringing you down. I would get some space from her.

I had a friend who was very picky about dates and getting married. Sort of like I imagine you BDB. I thought he was an idiot about all of it, and should have married at least a couple of his girlfriends (one or the other, not both at the same time). He would always break up with them over superficial little things, and then get really upset when they got engaged to other guys later.

So I lost touch with him for a few years, and finally got back in touch. He finally did get married. And his wife was an exotic looking hottie.

I guess his plan was a good one after all.

I would ask Friend A how many window's have been broken in his/her glass house throughout the course of his/her life.

For the record Friend A is my best friend, and friend A is not perfect, does not have a spotless past, and has dated many men with and without a tr. She is currently married to a man who does not have a spotless past. She has been telling me for years that marriage is hard, and it takes work, and when things get rough you want to be know that you have a spouse who keeps covenants and will stay and work through things, not someone who throws in the towell when the hard times come. Let me just be very clear that we are not the discussing the opinions of a self-righteous, unforgiving, judgmental woman.

Fair enough. I appreciate you telling me that and I'll recant what I said.

Friend A will end up being Sheri Dew Junior and likely lonely for the majority of their life.

It's also likely that Friend A has a more skewed and narrow view of The Atonement than most regardless of whether they have a shady history.

Yuck.

This does not compute. Is she saying "don't do what I did"? Or did you just overstate her opinion initially?

I would say that it depends on the proximity of marriage in the relationship.

If a date is solely for the purpose of social interaction, the date need not even be a member of the church-- just somebody you'd get along with and have fun with. When narrowing the field, they ought to be fairly active, if not card-carrying. Once you are asking the terrible question "Should I marry this person or not," not only ought they to carry a recommend, but they should also have given sufficient demonstration that they have what it takes to make a marriage last for eternity.

Incidentally, if you were to gloss over a few details, I would say that I've dated both Friend A and B. I had suspected things wouldn't work out with Friend A well before they didn't, and I am still dating Friend B. Not a coincidence.

Just because someone has a TR does not mean that he/she is a good person who is living right, or is worthy to use it. It's not difficult to figure out what the correct answers are to the questions in the interview, and tell the bishop what he wants to hear. Meanwhile the person who let his TR expire may actually have more integrity than the other.

If temple attendance truly is an issue, try and discover how often the person attends on his own, instead of when his peers or there or on "ward temple night."

This was the standard answer but now, there seems to be a silent creep in advice given. If after you pass through the optimal years for marriage the newer advice, and in my opinion sounder advice, is to recommend finding a compatible mate, member or not.

If you can have a good person as a mate, that is preferrable to being unmarried.

I am assuming, of course, that one is operating under circumstances permitting them to be at least this picky.

I don't think I overstated her opinion...I guess she may be trying to say don't do what I did. Actually, I'm certain that's what she's getting at.

You make it sound so desperate. I really don't think my situation in life warrants that kind of reaction. It makes me sound like I'm turning 50 next week and I better just take what I can get.

At some point in a discussion long ago, I seem to remember you putting a high premium on your future spouse having served a mission. (You can correct me if I'm wrong on that). As such, I would think that if you had a mandate that the future Mr. Diamond Bay serve a mission, than it stands to reason that the person being a temple recommend holder would fall in line with that request.

Obviously, people can serve missions and fall of the wagon and eventually get a recommend...which I understand, but I would think that in this particular instance, if one has a hang up about someone having served a mission (which would eventually come up in the course of a few dats, if not the first) than I would also have to assume that the same would apply for a temple rec.

While on the airplane returning home from the mission, I asked Sister Mansfield if she was excited to find herself a hot RM to spend eternity with. Her response was, "are you kidding? The title returned missionary means nothing to me now."

Yeah, it's kind of true, I do have a little hangup with the mission thing. I know it's borderline irrational, judgmental, unforgiving, etc. I dated one really nice guy that was falling all over himself for me, but I just could never get past it. I finally had to just kick him to the curb. So now I don't even bother trying to get past it, so now you can all think less of me for being like that.

A tr is an entirely different matter, recommends come, and recommends go. RM is just one of those black and white things, you either are or you aren't, and in my dating demographic, that's not something that's going to change.

How has limiting yourself to RMs worked for your as a spouse finding strategy?

BDB,,,the simple fact is this...and other single LDS men in their 30's or older will back me up on this: The older you get the harder and thinner the pool of temple recommend worthy single men out there dwindles not just by a little bit,,,,but dramatically so. My guess...and I could be wrong is that you probably already know this or are discovering this on your own.

I'm not saying this should usher in a sense of urgency for you to go out and get hitched. I'm not suggesting that at all....but I am telling you that with the level of expectation you've set for yourself and what your demands for a future spouse are, that it's going to make things even that more difficult later on in life to find what you think you want.

It's also VERY easy to lie and get a temple recommend and I know a lot of people who do it or who've done it. Having a temple recommend isn't neccessarily an accurate gauge of whether a person is still worthy to consider for marriage or not and if that's the main standard "Friend A" has set up for herself she's in for a world of hurt later on when reality sets her up for a painful fall. "Friend A" will have cheated herself out of someone awesome if that's the main deal breaker. Having a TR is a good thing...a good thing to want a future spouse to have, but if that's the deal breaker,,,then like I once heard a General Authority tell me once when I was working towards getting my recommend back....it's not where you are, but where you're going that really matters.

Aside from my needing the guy to be an RM what do you know about my demands in a future spouse?

FYI, friend A is married.

Oh about as well as it would if I hadn't limited myself to RM's. Trust me, there are much bigger issues at play that are keeping me single than whether or not I want to marry an RM.

I'd be equally suspicious of RMs and non-RMs. I knew plenty of shady missionaries on my mission.

What did I say about your other demands?

Who says I'm not?

Frankly I don't care to be told anything of the sort from someone who knows zilch about what my expectations for myself and my future spouse are.

OK.

Well, you could just take a random plunge and bank on the fact that you can get your sealing canceled if you don't like him afterwards.

If I'm so off BDB....then tell us/me what you're expectations are.....and by the way you say we know zilch,,,you're not exactly hard to read BDB. If that offends you,,,then well....tough.

You deal with people in a very direct fashion, but you don't like it when someone deals with you in kind.

Why do you come on a board seeking advice or other opinions, but then lash out when you don't like what you read or hear? What does that accomplish besides get you all pissy and defensive?

Dating someone for more than a month is taking a random plunge in my world. I should have been like the rest of the girls at BYU that got married in their early twenties when they had less to give up, or didn't realize what they were giving up.

Perhaps you are asking the wrong question here then. I told someone close to me several years ago that if he would first work to become the person he wanted to be that the kind of girl he truly wanted would find him. I'm sure this was something he already knew and he obviously did all the heavy lifting, but no sooner had he put himself on the proper track in life than his future wife showed up in his life and like many of us he married up.

Whatever your bigger issues are, they have been an impediment to you attracting the right guy up until now. Maybe focusing on them in an honest way is more important that the relative flexibility of the items on your "list."

Because it's none of your business, and not relevant to the question at hand. Based on a series of erroneous assumptions on your part I'd say that if I'm not hard to read, you're illiterate.

Telling you that you don't know jack about what I'm looking for, is not getting defensive because you've dealt with me in a direct fashion. The defensive attitude can more accurately be ascribed to the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. Do we really need to go over this "you don't know me" discussion again? I kind of thought I'd made my point the last time, but

I asked for your opinion on a vague hypothetical situation. It's entirely unclear to me how that was interpreted as a solicitation for personal dating advice.

Exactly what assumptions....if there have been any,,,are erroneous? And since when are you the master of deciding what is and isn't relevant to this disucssion?

I've not gave you any dating advice, rather than make an observation that the older you get it'll be harder to find a worthy temple recommend holder.

And the defensive attitude can be ascribed to just you being you BDB. Are you telling me that if "I did know you" that you're reaction to me would be any different? If so...then I'll admit I'm wrong...otherwise I have nothing else to go on but your pissy attitude.

I've also not told you who, when, where and how to date at all.

It's interesting you think you can talk to, think of and deal with people in a certain ascerbic way, but cannot handle any of it in return. I've no doubt you're a very kind individual instead of the cold, black and white persona you portray online, and we just see things differently and that's fine with me.

Have a Happy New Year BDB. :)

When the time comes that you solicit dating advice, remember this. FAKE KNOCKERS!

Go get a set while you are close to Dr. Beverly Hills, and all your problems will be solved. I would wait until you ask, but I keep getting busier in life and am missing all of these good threads.

Women who get married younger are not giving up less. They are giving up more. If you dont marry until later in life, you at least get the chance to have a career, travel, get a grad degree, etc.. Women who marry early and dive into kids give all of that up...or, at least, it becomes exponentially more difficult to accomplish.

Some women are fine with their decision to do so. Others consciously do it as a personal sacrifice because they would also love to start their family.