Now that the LDS Church has raised the
 

bar?

If they're doing their job properly, less missionaries are being sent home because they are filtering out the higher risk missionaries before they ever reach the MTC.

I wonder if anyone in leadership worries about an eventual class system in the church and how that will affect people.

Has anyone studied any of the older churches, say the Catholics and if a class sytem developed there and what happened.

The class system arose over using heredity and/or money to obtain more influence in the church.

You think that's starting to happen in the LDS church?

Even in Boston?

Sure there is a class system.

I've had 3 relatives (1st cousin once removed, great uncle, and great uncle) in the first presidency in the last 30 years. What are the chances of that if I'm not a Mormon aristocrat? :) Indy?

Are you saying they unduly used their family ties to wield power?

I'm not sure about being sent home early but it seems like a lot of kids are coming home early for medical reasons. The most common one seems to be from anxiety attacks. If the kid is going to be freaking out for two years and have troubles I don't believe he should be out there but it sure seems a lot more prevalent then it was.

Part of my mom's "job description" was to make sure that missionaries were taking their psychopharmaceuticals.

My experience is that alot more missionaries are being sent home early, sometimes for questionable reasons and the negative consequences to the missionary and his/her family are severe and lifelong. For good reason, I have strong feelings on this topic.

Let me give you a recent (April, 2007) example. I have a niece who was serving as a missionary in Guatemala. After serving for six months, she wanted to "clear the slate" and called her MP on the phone to schedule an interview during his upcoming visit for a zone conference. He advised her to discuss the problem on the phone. She confessed a single incidence of petting not disclosed to her Bishop or SP. Thirty minutes after the phone call, the MP called her back and said she was being sent home. No personal visit, no attempt to work with her in the field. She was an outstanding missionary and had recently baptized a family with six children.

After returning home in disgrace, she and her family were isolated and shunned by her ward. Her punishment at home was three months of informal probation. No counseling, no arms of fellowship, nothing. Yes, she made a mistake, but the punishment did not fit the crime.

Here is the what this mean spirited MP hath wrought: my niece is now attending UC Northridge and is ambivalent towards the Church. Her testimony of the gospel is strong, but she will forever be labeled as a failed missionary. Her parents are not so lucky. They are now separated and in the process of divorcing after a 42 year marriage and seven children. Plain and simple, they could not withstand the isolation and judgements that followed their daughter being sent home. Some may judge that their marriage did not have a strong foundation and the daughter being sent home was merely a tipping point. I think otherwise.

Raising the bar without the application of wisdom and forgiveness is a double edged sword. There was not a sin here worthy of either disfellowshipment or excommunication. Another example of the consequences of the misapplication of Church discipline. Unrighteous dominion is pure evil.

I wish an informed physician would chime in here, but it seems we have lots of children taking medications for psychological diseases. Does society seek it out too much, or was society just under-treated previously?

No. I'm saying that the fact that they were relatives somehow introduced a bias. Maybe it's because they knew each other...I don't know.

I'm convinced that the vast majority of general authorities are genuinely good, sincere men who are doing their best, but sometimes make mistakes.

I also believe for the most part, God doesn't care who his leaders are, so long as they are devout members, who participate and work hard. Thus, leaders are free to choose those they know.

Usually I find myself on your side of the fight. I'm against church discipline. I've seen how it has negatively affected many people and families. I think the judgement of men whether it be mission president or high council to be a bit on the Tex side of power mongering and graceless. However...when you frame a story like you just did, it basically turns nearly everyone against you, as the story you describe is very unbelievable the way you state it, not to mention whiney and mean spirited. My first reaction is to want to argue against you, though I'm on your side of the fight.

I apologize for inserting too much emotion. It is easy to get carried away when it is so close to home.

Sorry. What made me think of it was the more stringent rules for missionaries. Another stratification of good and better mormons. I don't know what the answer would be, as I support the notion of missionaries being better qualified or more ready to go.

However, I see class starting to crop up and Indy, I don't think it is about money, but about who is better.

BYU, that is where the churches best and brightest go. Every young man a missionary. The ones that don't go are lesser citizens. For the, I will only marry a RM girls, there status will only go up if they hook one since there will be fewer and they will be more revered.

You are a great Mom, but you work. I am a great Mom and stay at home, greater status.

I don't know, maybe this is really nothing, because right now when I actually attend church I don't see any stratification of members, it is only when I hear people talk.

Yea, I know there is the Celestial, Telestial and Terrestial, however I don't know if we as mortals get to assign our fellow members that status right now.

This is the problem in an imperfect world or church. I am defining church here as the organization and members. Occasionally you find some real jackasses in leadership positions.

This is why I think a lot of straightening out will be done in the hereafter.

I've told both my daughters that they should never discuss their sex lives with Church leaders. I've told them that if they feel guilty about something and want to talk about it, they can always talk to me or to their mother. If they feel uncomfortable doing that, then I'll pay for them to talk with a professional counselor. I told them Church leaders are fine men and are generally sincere, but they have no ability to absolve anyone of anything they have done, and that if someone feels they have offended God, they should take it up with God.

I once went on a couple of dates with a girl who told me that she had engaged in fellatio once, and she confessed to her bishop. I asked her what the bishop asked during the interview, and she said that he told her that he needed details in order to understand how serious the sin was. For example, the bishop asked whether the guy ejaculated, and he told her that this was a critical piece of information.

When I told her that the bishop was a perv, she got REALLY mad at me. I didn't go out with her again.

Then she should have told me she didn't believe in confession.

Since I know my audience ;), I won't use the term "institutionalized child abuse", but I will say that the way the Church messes with kids heads is close to shameful.

Is Dr. Neibaur still practicing down in that area? He gave a great fireside one time on depression among church members.

Oh my. What a graceless thing to say.

So it is your contention that your niece's ambivalent feelings toward the church and her parents' troubled marriage can all be laid at the feet of a mission president who sent her home prematurely?

I've known a few missionaries to come home early in my day. Some weather it and some don't, and as you note, much of their success has to do with the support they receive from those around them.

I can think of one relative in particular who returned home after 2 days in the MTC to resolve some chastity issues. He came home "on fire" as they say, reading his scriptures every day, determined to return. He unfortunately did not receive good priesthood support. The brethren around him tragically dropped the ball, were indifferent to his circumstances, and eventually he fell away. His family remains active and he is not hostile to the church, but he has "moved on." He is still young, and we can remain hopeful, but I wonder how much different his life would have been had he received the local support he needed.

That being said, I find your story to be a little one-sided. While there are those in any ward who judge and demean someone who returns early, I have not encountered the widespread ostracism you describe ... to the point of destroying someone's marriage. If what you say is really true, then obviously there is a problem with much of the community in which they live. It is without question contrary to the spirit of everything the gospel means.

This was my reaction as well. My ward has had a couple fo missionaries return home ealry. My family has had the same thing happen. I have not seen anyone be ostracized from family or from the ward and, to the contrary, in my ward, I think people tend to be very solicitous and try to be helpful. I am sure there are wards where early returnees may feel ostracized, but I do not think it is the norm.

Both. Is that enough enlightenment on the subject?

To elaborate, I think it's a little ridiculous to assume that real depression/anxiety exist only in people over 21 (or 18, or whatever the cutoff is), although that is the assumption the medical community worked under for years. As soon as you identify a biochemical basis for depression, you also admit it can exist any age. That is being done more and more frequently and appropriately so. The challenge comes in distinguishing normal adolescent angst (or stress of mission field) from pathologic depression, and I think it's occasionally being overdiagnosed.

You are correct that I am one-sided (and emotional to a fault) on this topic and have not spoken to all the involved parties. The community and ward in CA where my aunt and uncle reside is very upscale - huge homes, all the toys, competition, etc. There appears to be this underlying requirement to raise what those in the ward perceive to be 100% perfect kids (i.e. missions, temple marriages, etc.), and exhibit all of the outer trappings of material success. Those who fall short of this supposed norm are isolated.

If somebody has pathological depression, then it should be treated. And I was under the impression it's more pronounced and diagnosable in persons over 21.

However, there seems to be a tendency that if a kid misbehaves or suffers from some sort of angst, we need to jump to the meds. I'm familiar with entire families where every individual has a panoply of meds by the time he or she is ten.

Of course, that is anecdotal, and not useful.

Psychotherapy + meds is much more effective than meds alone or psychotherapy alone.

Some things are overdiagnosed, but I think giving meds without psychotherapy is a big problem (although this isn't my expertise by a long shot).

Wow, you told Tex he is correct. Has Tex ever told anyone they were correct when discussing something. I know he will back track and claim he didn't say what he did. However, has he ever issued the words, you are correct or I was wrong.

I also was once friends with a girl that had to describe in detail how many times in and out, etc. She got the real impression that the bishop was getting a chub about it. She went inactive shortly thereafter, and as far as I know is still inactive 10-15 years later.

I think it's getting better. Back in my day coming back early off a mission to Rexburg just was not an option. Everybody went (70 out of the 100 boys in my graduating class) and everybody stayed and that the way it was.

Who counts?

Him: "A Lot"

Her: "not enough"

An autistic savant with a penchant for numbers?

I was friends with a woman who had an affair and confessed it to her bishop. She hadn't confessed it to her husband yet, but word of the indiscretion got back to her from a lady in the RS who had learned about it from the bishop's wife. If I ever had any doubts that discussing intimacies with a bishop was a bad idea, that episode erased them.

Other end of the spectrum: One of my good friends got a hand job from a member girl on his mission. He felt so bad about it that he called his MP right after, and all the MP did was talk with him and tell him to never do it again. I think it all depends on the MP.

WHo talks about this stuff? I feel like I'm in an episode of Jerry Springer.

On the day before he was supposed to return home, one of my former companions confessed to me that he had made out with a girl from the ward a few days earlier and asked my advice on whether he should tell the mission president. I said, "Did you cast your seed?". He told me he didn't, so I said, "Vaya con Dios".

Crap, on my mission I had a guy in my District admit he was gay. I didn't want to tell him I didn't know what being gay meant, so I just said. That's good Elder, the Lord put us on on this earth to be happy.