Are we seeing Charlie Weiss phenomenon at BYU?
 

Charlie Weiss blew through Willingham's team that Willingham painstakingly assembled at Notre Dame and was deprived of maximizing, looking like a million bucks on Willingham's labors. Now ND fans are seeing the true Weiss while Willingham is rebuilding UW's national program while UW fans remain patient. Is BM BYU's Weiss?

I suggested a comparison on cb, and was burned in effigy.

No.

The issue at BYU, so far this year, is not the loss of offensive firepower.

however Bronco is a defensive coach, and the breakdown was on defense. hence the comparison is still apt, as Weiss is an offensive coach.

You see this kind of thing happen all the time. Tampa Bay immediately post-Dungy. UW, Neuheisal's early years. Of course Urban Meyer has made a career off of it, though he seems to be great in his own right. Some of the older posters will remember when Redd Miller took John Ralston's Broncos team to the Super Bowl.

I haven't jumped off the Bronco ship. But I have yet to get the feeling that the Cougars have really outdone themselves in a LONG time, under 3 different HCs.

But Bronco did not exactly inherit a great defensive team ready for primetime. Whatever breakdowns BYU had were long prevalent before Bronco arrived.

Lavell rarely outdid himself. College football coaching legacies are built upon consistently beating the teams you should and leveraging that success into program improvement so that more teams move into the beating teams that you should beat category. That is what Lavell did. He still was usually beaten and often crushed by the teams that were better.

Define outdoing themselves.

beating a better team with sheer hook, crook, desire and gumption.

Outside of Miami 1990, what game during the LaVell era qualifies under this description?

2006 was one of the 4 or 5 best BYU teams ever. Do we really only give a coach two consecutive losses after that before engaging in a nonsensical thread like this?

Agreed. The discussion is rediculous!

I must say Indy has come the full circle. Fine post sir, stay in Bronco's corner, he is worth your time and effort. If you ever wonder which BYU coaches are just inquire and I will let you know where to spend your resources. You are back in the circle of trust.

I will also add that since my faith was restored last year which gives me a positive perspective when BYU shits out an egg like saturday's contest, I have come to another conclusion. This fanbase needs some losses. With the internet and talk radio, can you imagine how unsufferable BYU could become if it had another run like it did from '79-'85?

What is so nonsensical? A question was asked and people gave their opinions. I think right now I come down on the side of Bronco is a very good coach in the developing stage. I think Bronco mania, of which I get caught up in too, gets a little too carried away at this point.

The rest of the season will tell us a lot.

Oh come now, Utenation is presently similar to sailors at a Pearl Harbor brothel after a six month sea tour. SeattleUte is the foremost "minuteman" in the group. They are taking their shots, but alas their energy is expended after but a few thrusts. We, no different than the women of illrepute at said brothel, take their feeble thrusts while really getting no pleasure out of it. I don't even think we get paid.

I think Brother Neeleman and Veritas are already on the back veranda smoking cigarettes and dropping fireside jokes.

Hey pal. You still holding out for BSC busting? HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Utenation??? I haven't even read anything Utenation is saying nor do I care. Just because a Ute may ask a question doesn't automatically make it nonsensical.

Yes it does. You are now talking nonsensical.

You are suffering from stockholm syndrom. The "true blue? crowd has succesfully captured and brainwashed you. Next thing we will hear you backing Indy's 2002 -2004 Crowton is a good coach mantra.

I thought Crowton was our Willingham.



How much of this post is literal and how much is figurative?

This is silly. The UCLA and Tulsa games exposed two things about BYU.

1. We have a QB in his first year as a starter

2. We have a bad secondary



We knew both of these things going into the season. I don't see why everyone is so surprised.

No. There was a defensive breakdown, due to the talent level BYU has. I'll give him a mulligan after what he's done to mask the defensive weaknesses over the past year. If they've been playing above their talent level on such a consistent basis, is it really that big of a negative that a good offensive team exposed it?

I don't blame the defense per se. I blame the defensive coach. It was mental breakdowns, not athleticism that did us in.

Yeah, very true. Everybody take you're hands of the strings; well, everbody but you SU, go ahead and pull away.

That was the Denver team with Craig Mortensen, Otis Armstrong, Haven Moses and Riley Odem, wasn't it?

How about Texas A&M when Marc Wilson was QB? Or Notre Dame in South Bend under Holtz? Or Arizona State under Frank Kush before ASU and UA went to the PAC 10? Or several games in the '84 season? Or even Utah in Lavell's last regular season game?

A&M ended up not being good in 1979 (6-5). ND was 6-5-1 in 1994. 1984 was the worst SOS schedule BYU has had in the last 27 years. Utah was not better than BYU in 2000.

IOW, none of those outside of possibly the vague ASU/UA example qualifies under the "better team" clause that Mike Waters stated.

Wait, we've only had one or two legitimate upsets in 30 years? that's sad.

There are only 3 OOC opponents that BYU has ever beaten with 9 or more wins. I'm not sure Kansas State qualifies as an upset. ASU 1997 was definitely an upset since that BYU team crawled to a 6-5 record.

Quite frankly I hope we don't have to look to beating better teams with sheer hook, crook, desire and gumption. While it may be fun to point out a win like that, they happen rarely for anyone.

BYU didn't need sheer hook, crook, desire and gumption to beat Az., BC, UCLA or Tulsa. Those teams weren't necessarily better teams, they just played better and won.

All we need to do is upgrade our talent a bit and we will be fine.

Well, I guess Boise St. has a greater signature victory than BYU. And that is kind of sad.

Boise was better than Oklahoma. Under this definition of "signature" a better example would be UTEP. I also think Miami finished 1990 ever bit as good a team as Oklahoma did last year, unless of course you are using BSU's throttling of the mighty U of U........

The point is that BYU might have had games that at the time appeared like an upset, but once the dust settles from the entire season and the game is placed in proper context, BYU usually beat a team it was better than. That is really not so offensive to me.

I'm really tired of losing to all these teams in non-conference. Boston College. Arizona. UCLA. etc. It wears on me. I don't get very excited about beating the scrubs in the MWC that no one cares about, with 20k fans in the stands.

We talk big, but seem to come up short almost every time. I'm tired of losing bowl games. I'm tired of being disgusted (Motor City Bowl). I'm tired of being ashamed. That's the promise of Bronco. That he will change all that. I'm hopeful, but I'm still waiting.

IMHO, Bronco only has one bummer loss. 3 years into the program doing it his way, that is acceptable to me.

He doesn't have many signature wins either. That is why I have backed off of my love affair with Bronco mania just a little bit.

no palms on the floor, just staring into the stall at this point?

I thought TCU was a far better team than either BC or U of A last year. I think you bitch too much about the whole thing. If last year did not make you happy you never will be. That is as good as it gets at BYU. There are serious limitations for a division 1-A team with no recruiting base for any athleticism and serious religious/moral expectations of its students.

I don't understand how you could think Bronco has not delivered on his promises so far. So I hope he doesn't shame you much more. ;)

Well, two games, UCLA and Tulsa remind me that Bronco has a ways to go.

This reminds of Lou Holtz.

He stated when he first came to ND, he was told to win. The first season, they went 8 and 4. He was told, "you don't understand coach, you're supposed to win."

So next season, they go 10 and 2 and he thought he would be commended. "You don't understand coach, we wanted you to win."

Next season, ND goes undefeated and wins the national championship, so he thought they would finally be satisfied, "Coach, do it again."

Bronco, do it again.

I bet he will do it again, but I think anyone expecting him to do it every year is setting themselves up for emotional suicide.

BYU is what it is.

Losing to UCLA is almost a rite of passage, but losing to Tulsa is an insult.