OK you potential Bishops out there
 

Young lady in your ward at age 17 has intercourse. She repents and does all the things necessary to receive forgiveness.

At age 22 she has fallen in love with a very charming young man. However, his P blessing says someday he will be amongst the leaders of the church and sit in council with them. He doesn't want anything coming out of the wordwork when that day arises.

He shows the fiance's Bishop the P Blessing and asks, Bishop has my fiance ever confessed having pre-marital sex. What do you tell the young man.

Not claiming to be the bishop type, but my answer is as follows: ask her. It's a conversation I can't have as bishop for a number of reasons, mostly because it's a breach of confidentiality obligations I'd feel I have, and also because that sort of thing would have a chilling effect on the openness of others who come to talk to me if word got out that I told. And if the young lady in question was not willing to tell the young man, chances are she's the sort who would be eternally pissed at me for telling.

I would refuse to say a thing, and then immediately call her and say "your fiance is asking if you have ever confessed sexual sin to me. Thought you might like to know. Being married to a mullah is not all that btw."

I would tell him that if he was so petty to worry about something like that then he probably wouldn't be called to one of those positions anyway.

I'm sorry I probably shouldn't have answered this question since you directed it to potential bishops only.

was that code for "what is your opinion Tex, Indy, and Lingo?"

Oops. I should have stayed out.

Hilarious, 71. I love your disdain for this kind of stuff. But I sometimes wonder if you have too much energy for an element of society that may not actually exist in the real world. Only in the fantasy of anti-Mormon/anti-BYU types.

God remembers the sin no more. Sounds like that G12-wannabe is holding his fiancee to a higher standard than God.

Alma the Younger sat in the counsels of the church.

Ask him what his thoughts are on the idea that Jesus married the reformed hooker Mary Magdalene.

Don't bring up scripture stories; we're talking real life stuff here.

Were I the Bishop:

I would tell the man that the question in and of itself is inappropriate.

I agree with the prior thoughts along the line of "If he is that concerned about it then he likely isn't GA material anyway" but if I were the Bishop I wouldn't express said thought.

There's a lot of potential bishops in here. Not me. :)

I tell him there's no way in the world I can divulge that kind of information. Period. End of story.

For good measure I would remind him that if people have fully repented that God remembers them no more and who are we to deny that blessing and privilege for the penitent.

Yeah but he is using his Patriarchal blessing as a trump card to override the longstanding custom of confidentiality, love and forgiveness in the triangle that is bishop, member, and Christ. I certainly can't wait to hear his views on life in a future General Conference. Maybe it will be broadcast from Sidney Rigdon's church in Memphis.

I've never had a Handbook, but I'm pretty sure there isn't some Patriarchal Blessing exemption clause.

There is no way on earth I will ever be called as bishop; I know that. But I doubt any reasonably trained bishop would answer that question.

It would be more reasonable to focus upon the young man, not even addressing anything related to the young lady.

Then to focus upon the calling of bishop and the absurdity of the request. Thereafter, it would require a disclaimer, that the fact I'm not addressing it should not imply any conduct by the young lady but that I found his request offensive and not in harmony with the Gospel, thereby making it unlikely he would ever sit in high councils.

I'll never be called as a Bishop either, but I'd point blank ask him..."And what is your motive for asking this and what possible relevance does this have with her current worthiness?"

Then watch him squirm.

That's a much better response than mine.

Tex reminded us that church leaders do this for prospective GA's and others in high callings. So maybe the kid would have some basis for the question.

Well obviously I'm never getting the call to be a bishop, but hypothetically speaking I of course wouldn't rat the girl out. I would make the kid tell me anything about his future wife in the PB, and ask him if she meets all the qualifications. The move along and have a little discussion about close-minded interpretations of a PB. Send him off to go chat with her in person about past trangressions, and I'd probably give the girl a heads up too. She needs to know that she's marrying someone that would rather get the dirt on her from another party then come straight to the source.

The fact he wants the "dirt" on her shows a flaw in his character. Why would any counselor assist a person with this character flaw?

I don't think it's an unreasonable question to ask. If you're going to be shackled to this person for the rest of eternity you have a right to know what kind of emotional baggage is coming along with them. Especially for the guy, girls get all emotionally jacked up when they're sleeping around. I don't think it's anymore inappropriate than asking if someone is suffering from a mental illness.

It's who he's asking that I have a problem with.

What he chooses to do with the information once he has it is entirely up to him, and who am I to judge that decision?

I have a roommate that had a little history, and was dating a a guy that she thought she might marry. She told him about it, because she admitted upfront that she had emotional issues from the experience, and he deserved to know that. Turns out he had more than her though and so nothing ever came of it.

I just posed this "hypothetical" to my brother who's a Bishop in a Murray Ward.

His exact response..."Apparently this guy doens't believe in the Atonement and she's getting into bed with a guy holding a recommend, but who yet lacks a testimony and I'd carefully and kindly warn her to be wary of control freaks like this guy."

My brother's final words..."By that way...that is unbelievably arrogant. That blessing could mean he will be on the High Council or the Ward council for all he knows. What a head case."

So there's one Bishops view on it.

Is this a real story? Are there really people out there stupid enough to ask a question like this?

If so, I pity this young woman.

Paranthetically, there is no evidence Mary Magdalene was a hooker.

Do "this"? Try not to be so vague.

The question they asked a mission president friend of mine was, "Is there any sin or misdeed in your past, even repented of, that were it brought to light could embarrass the church?" (By the way, I don't know that those are the exact words--you're getting this 3rd hand--but it was to that effect.)

That strikes me as a tad further up the "serious" scale than some indiscretion as a teenager.

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showpos...1&postcount=19

The real problem with this situation, as others have pointed out, is that he thinks such a call is actually coming. Someone ought to share Luke 14:10 with him.

I agree with this and most of the previous responses. For the purposes of a continued semblance of sanity, please tell me this is truly a hypothetical and not a real person. Do patriarchs really make such outlandish promises?

No, but many folks decide that the Patriarch did.

I agree with you BDB, it is a very appropriate question......to ask a future spouse though, and NOT her bishop. And if it is to be asked, it should have nothing to do with worthiness, and everything to do with the practicalities of the relationship.

I had a friend who faced a similar situation with his girlfriend/fiance. After spending some time thinking and praying about her past transgressions (that she informed him about...he never went to the bishop) he told her that if the Lord forgave her, who was he to even concern himself with the transgression.

Not surprisingly, they are happily married with kids now.

I'm not sure how appropriate it is to know a fiance's past transgressions...if the person has truly repented and has been forgiven, then the Lord (throuh proper authority) has seen fit to forgive and allow the person to move on. When dating and making decisions about maraige, you fall in love with who they are, not who they were 5 years ago.

agree that bishop has no business answering this question. still, i would ask the young man if his mission was the 2 best years of his life - b/c he sounds like the kind of young man who will probably answer yes for many many years to come...

boooooo..........mission is still the best two years of my life.

I don't agree with that. I don't think you need to know every nitty-gritty detail of every little transgression. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with asking about some of the big ones either. Not because it's a question of worthiness, or forgiveness, but because there are sometimes still consequences for those sins. Who wants to get blindsided by your husband's ex-girlfriend showing up one day with his 6 year old illegit son wanting to collect on child support? It happened to one of my cousins.

I dated a guy who told me on our second date that he just wanted me to know upfront that that particular scenario was a possibility for him, and if I couldn't deal with it there wasn't any point in continuing to date. I still dated him, but in retrospect I probably wouldn't again. Not because I felt like he wasn't worthy, or because I was afraid of having to pay back child support, but because I think his little walk on the wild side had some consequences (not std's) that were a lot to deal with. To his credit he was very open about it, with me. I know his wife has struggled with some of that stuff, and in retrospect I'm not sure I'm cut out to take that on. Probably why we broke up three times. Anway, I assume he was just as open with her as he was with me. So she knew what those issues were, and decided she could handle it. Which is totally fair. I know a few girls that have all kinds of lingering issues from previous trangressions, and I don't think it would be wise for someone to marry them without being aware of what those issues are.

Although honestly, I don't know how you could date someone without figuring it out. After a couple of weeks it's obvious. At a minimum I'd think you'd at least suspect.

The problem with prying into the "big ones" is it leads to more questions and questions lead to wanting more details...which leads to more questions,,,which leads to jealousy and a big fight and bad feelings.

If someone could ever just say yeah..."I did this" and leave it at that fine...but that rarely is what ends up happening and the end result is typically resentful feelings towards each other.

I do think if someone has a history of substance or physical abuse then that is without question something that needs to be addressed, but in the case of sexual sins before marriage....a simple yes or no ought to suffice....the problem is....it rarely does suffice or satiate ones curiousity. It often makes the interrogator thinking they have a right to know more than they actually do.

People are always saying they want to be in a relationship where they won't have to re-live their past....and quite frankly,,,if they've gone and applied the Atonement in their life....outside of a simple yes or no.....they shouldn't be forced to re-live it again.

This reminds me of someone I worked with in the past. He had been involved in a lot of pretty out there sexual stuff. He had been single, but was basically a swinger. Groups, etc.

His wife doesn't know about his past.

Because of his past involvement in that scene, he knew about a particular woman who was also in the workplace and had been in that scene. She started dating a nice guy, and of course he never told the guy about her past, but he probably wondered if he would have wanted to know (they broke up).

I'm sure that's a possible scenario, but would you rather have that happen after the wedding? Might as well be beforehand so you both know what you're getting into. Although if you've dated a guy that does have that past, and a guy that doesn't, there really shouldn't be any need to ask.

I hope he had a battery of std tests before the wedding. That's a perfect example of details that don't need to be shared, but unless she's kind out out to lunch, I'd bet money that she knows that he has some kind of a history.

Answer: None of your damn business.

I would then proceed to rip the guy a new one about the inappropriateness of his question and why the fact that he wants to know (from her or me) shows he does not undertand the gospel of Jesus Christ or the Atonement.

Uhh...okay. Maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension. I think I was VERY clear that I felt it going to the bishop with the question is entirely inappropriate.

Heh. Obviously you are a novice at dealing with Cali Coug. :)

Cali, if I ever become prophet, you will be the first guy I revoke all his blessings from.

Come on, why is there even any discussion on this. It was addressed pretty clearly by Elder Jack Weyland in Charly

Aren't you guys familiar with the scriptures at all?

[QUOTE=Black Diamond Bay;123553]I don't agree with that. I don't think you need to know every nitty-gritty detail of every little transgression. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with asking about some of the big ones either. Not because it's a question of worthiness, or forgiveness, but because there are sometimes still consequences for those sins. Who wants to get blindsided by your husband's ex-girlfriend showing up one day with his 6 year old illegit son wanting to collect on child support? It happened to one of my cousins.

QUOTE]

I think it is fairly obvious that if a transgression includes a child, or a disease, that the person would want to disclose that information to a potential spouse because it is a tangible part of that person's life. (Which actually happened in the case I mentioned on forgiveness).

Perhaps I'm not giving "people" enough credit, and maybe there should be some disclosure, but I just don't see what the point of doing that would be, other than "digging up bones."

If someone has repented and moved on from a serious sin, why make them relive it and face new consequences for a sin he or she has already repented for, and been through that very difficult yet rewarding process. Seems excessive to me.