Masturbation and sex ed
 

My two oldest children (10 yr old daughter, 9 yr old son) are getting to the age where sex education is becoming a bit more, shall we say, complicated. That is, instead of using simple generalities to answer their questions, more details are becoming necessary, and they will soon be at the age where the discussions should necessarily begin to include their own feelings and thoughts, as well as discussions about the morality issues surrounding sexuality.

So far, things have gone pretty good. Last spring, two birds on the deck railing that were spotted by my then 8 year old son instigated a great, factual discussion on intercourse, with the two of them both present. Not too detailed or graphic, proper terms were used, no one seemed overly embarassed with the discussion. I was pretty happy how it went, and got a chuckle as they grasped the idea and commented how gross it was to think mom and dad had done that four times (we have four kids total). I told them it didn't always work, so they figured that eight times was doubly gross. I decided to leave it at that.

One subject that I've given a bit of thought is how to treat the topic of masturbation. My own experience is that the degree of condemnation of it that often occurs in an LDS context can lead to excessive guilt and feelings of isolation, unworthiness, and failure. It often has the additional effect of making LDS kids unwilling to even discuss it and related subjects with their parents or others who might appropriately address concerns and questions. I've heard others express the same sentiment.

Yet on the other hand, there are real dangers in having a too laissez-faire attitude as well. So I'm looking for appropriate ways to consider handling the issue so I'll be prepared when the situation arises. I realize bringing up this topic will likely produce its fair share of off-color humor and probably some controversy on the subject, but I'm truly interested in getting some serious feedback. I mostly lurk around here, but I've come to have quite a bit of respect for a fairly diverse group of posters on this board, and this is a subject that is usually easier discussed in a forum like this than it is with my "non-virtual" community.

A few of my initial thoughts to follow...

One of my primary lines of thought is to not focus too much on the act itself, but on some of the underlying principles. How it can lead to self-absorption and over indulging one’s appetites, and to the degree it becomes habitual, it begins to chain us.

I’ve also thought of using a grade/GPA simile. Allowing it to become a common occurrence, and a method of dealing with uncomfortable emotions on a regular basis, is like having a 1.5 GPA. Not a good thing, something that could cause you trouble for years to come. But a 3.5 GPA is something to feel pretty darn good about, even if the ideal is a 4.0. I’d certainly not be condemnatory of a 3.5, although I may give some gentle encouragement towards raising it.

Just a brief introduction to some of my musing about the subject.

LOL, someone is rubbing matches over gasoline.

I'll let soonercoug weigh in first.

(I'm assuming this is a serious question--the thing is that it was recently extensively discussed, ad nauseum).

Sorry, my apologies, I must have missed it. Although I've seen quite a few posts on the general subject, I've never read posts on this particular aspect of it.

One of the opinions that was offered was that masturbation is just fine, and that his father instructed him to never answer any questions about it from a Bishop.

So that is probably one extreme. On the other hand BYU71 was taught he would go blind (and secondarily important, hell) if he did it.

So that's the other extreme.

Probably the preferred middle for many Saints would be to teach that it is wrong, that self-control and self-discipline are virtues, but to not freak out if the goal is not reached.

The main thing I have seen happen in the church is little to no talk about it. Or very brief quick stern statements "it is a sin" with no other discussion about its relative weight or importance.

This summarizes my viewpoint quite well. I realize some have other ideas, but frankly, I'm not very interested in that particular aspect of this topic. My mind is pretty much made up, and I'm not likely to change my overall view of it. But my question really is, how do you effectively communicate that to a teenage kid?

This was my experience. In my teenage years, my bishop would come in to each Aaronic Priesthood quorum every year or so, and let us know it is a sin, and to come talk to him if we have a problem with it. But the tone of voice was not very inviting.

I remember sitting at a youth activity that was meant to be a fun way to learn about different gospel topics. There were several booths set up around the gym, and at each booth awaiting a short lesson, after which we would rotate to the next booth.

Anyway, at one booth there was a crotchety older gentlemen in a brown sport jacket, and on the board in big chalk letters was the word "MASTERBATION". The first thing I noticed was that he had spelled it wrong, and I commented about it to my friend sitting next to me. We both giggled. This older man, who by that age had most likely masturbated thousands of times in his life, proceeded to give us an extremely vitriolic hellfire and damnation speech.

Nothing special about all that, except that my memory of it is way more vivid than it should be. This can be a traumatic subject for some kids, and handling with anything but extreme sensitivity and realism could have serious consequences. In my opinion, this scenario would represent the "less effective" example. I felt guilty every time I masturbated for years afterward.

LOL. Where/how you guys find this stuff, I have no idea....

With Google, you can find just about anything.

I like the message this little (fake) ad sends: It doesn't say that it's sinful to masturbate, but who really hates kittens enough to do it?

Masturbation is a bodily function and no more a sin than sneezing or farting. Heaping guilt on a kid by telling him that masturbation is a sin, is akin to child abuse. I think back on that "little factory" pamphlet that was handed to me when was I was a kid, and it pisses me off that I was fed such a load of horse shit. Frankly, what your son does with his "little factory" is none of your business. If he wants to employ double shifts around the clock, then more power to him. It's his factory; let him run it the way he wants.

In human behavior courses in med school, we were taught that masturbation is absolutely normal. In fact, one female psychiatrist told us that it is normal even for married males with an active sex life to masturbate about once a week. I don't know what kind of study this was based on, so she may be full of crap.

I'd teach my kid not to overdo it, and that masturbation is a problem if it becomes an obsession that interferes with normal life, but a little bit of pocket pool here and there is totally normal.

And I still think it's ridiculous for LDS teenagers to feel guilty or talk to the bishop about it.

Quite frankly I don't like the idea of some adult, even if he is the Bishop talking to kids about the subject. I especially don't like the idea of some Priesthood advisor discussing it around the campfire.

What if you end up with a "mullah" type giving the discussion. One of those that consider a girl in a bikini as porn for instance.

If it is such a serious issue, then Bishops and advisors should be given some good instruction on the issue and then meet with parents and advise them on how to instruct their children on the issue.

Of course, you could have everyone experience what I experienced which was better at curtailing any desire I ever had to masterbate. Have another 14 year old with red hair and freckles tell you about something cool he learned to do and start to demonstrate. That experience stopped me from even holding my wanger when I took a leak for a couple of years.

I pretty much agree with you, but as a side question, what is the scientific basis for calling it "normal"? That it falls within 2 standard deviations of the mean behavior? If so, did they tell you the mean behavior and variability (which, I suppose, is expressed as the number of times individuals masturbate per month, or something like that)? Or maybe that they have conducted a controlled study, and the results are so-and-so, and here are the numbers?

Or is this a non-science based value judgment? If it is a value judgment, what the hell are they doing mixing science with such stuff and teaching it as science?

This can get me pretty steamed at times. I (and other religious people) are often criticized these days as being some dunderhead who believes in angels, men rising from the dead, etc. They ask, why can't I be rationale and scientific, and do away with the nonsense? Yet often, these same individuals/groups/etc have no problem spouting off value judgments that have little to no basis in science, but they happen to be their value judgments, and THEY, of course, are rational, intelligent beings, so we should listen and heed them. So then, for example, they then load guilt galore on kids, because they and their parents are taking more than their "fair share" of the earth's resources, or some other nonsense. But no mentioning of religious-based values is allowed in the schools, heaven forbid.

Sorry, just got me a little excited there, I don't really want to sidetrack the main topic, but it does make one wonder what they meant.

So discussions of sexuality are off limits in a church setting? Non-sequiter seems to thinks it should be off limits for parents as well. But we are supposed to be more open about sexuality these days, so it is OK for the school teacher (who, for all it seems in the media these days, is having sex with one or more of his/her students) to discuss these things? Their schoolmates are probably another good source to get it from, I suppose. Or maybe they should be discussing it online with someone who may or may not be a 14 year old, yes? Maybe they can search for the information online? (That must be what all the Google searches in Utah are about, kids just trying to get basic information!)

Although I can certainly appreciate your concerns, and share them to at least some degree, what, exactly, do you propose as the proper way for children to obtain answers to their questions, and to obtain proper attitudes about sexuality? Of course, the ideal is that a proper relationship exists between kids and parents, and that be the primary source, but should there be any supplemental sources? And, of course, the ideal is not always present, so what then? And besides, some parents are pretty screwed up in this area, so maybe government should monitor it, and take over the function, because they are so wise and beneficent?

Frankly, I'd prefer my kids getting it from the bishop than from most of the alternatives, although clearly, there should be some sort of controls and training in place.

I like the idea of the bishop meeting with the parents to tell them his take, his approach, to counsel with the parents how to approach it.

Probably almost never happens though.

I guess I wasn't very clear.

I don't want sex education taught in school. There I am not afraid of some "mullah" instructing the kids, but some liberal who thinks any kind of experimentation is OK.

I think I said I would like the church leaders, Bishops, SP's or whoever to instruct the parents on how to or the importance of instructing their children. I would call discussing the issue with the parents and how to teach their children a church setting, wouldn't you.

Now, as far as instructing the kids in a church setting other than the thou shall nots, you are right. I don't think church is a proper setting for sex education for children. I think that is a parental responsibility.

If you want to make sure it gets taught, tell the parents they will go blind if their kids masterbate.

If it is really a big deal, it should be a priority for every Bishop to do.

Sorry, I overreacted. Yes, I agree that the primary focus in a church setting should be the commandments and the general principles involved. Specific questions that might come up present a challenge of their own, however.

Work calls - I've got to run to my conference here in California. I intend to reply with more when I get some time.

I hope your conference goes well and look forward to your response.

IMHO, when those specific questions come up, the answer should be, "that is a question you should discuss with your parents."

Flat out I don't want any of the "mullah" thinking types I have noticed on this board or CB telling my kids anything about sex whatsoever. No offense BDB, but I wouldn't want you or herbie telling my kids about your version of appropriate sex from a position of authority. It harms their testimony of leaders when I have to then tell them the leader is full of crap on that issue.

Thanks for that one BYU71. It gave me a good laugh to start the day.

lol, it is like your own sim city. I can see telling the guys, " Sorry you are going to have to stay on for the swing shift, I just got the victoria secrets catalog and you guys are in for the long haul." Good thing the workers never band together and form unions, it would be tragic if they ever took action and went on strike.

I am sure BYU71 and Creeksters workers have been on strike for years.

Perhaps this is a plausible explanation for why I uhhhh need "lil' help" in my situation. Where the hell is a strikebreaker when I need one?

Don't misquote me. I was speaking of masturbation when I said it's none of the parent's business. A parent who doesn't talk with his/her children about sexuality is being down-right neglectful.

Sorry about that, non-sequitur. I knew I was taking a bit of liberty with your statement, but it seemed a bit artificial to have a boundary around that particular subject and yet still be open on the the broader subject with my children.

My children will choose to do as they wish on this, and I certainly will not be laying any massive guilt trip on them for it if they choose to keep the factory operating at a high capacity (my wife may be a different story). But I do consider the possibility of giving input within my proper bounds.

Can't this subject die?

It sounds like when sixth graders hear the word, "boobie" and giggle.

Die, die, die.........

I'm currently the 11-yr old scout leader in my ward, as well as the valiant 11/12 primary teacher. And so I'm now wondering how I would handle this subject in my calling.

I seem to have a pretty good relationship with the boys I work with. I'm not expecting them to bring up the subject, but it wouldn't shock me. If one of them broached the subject around the campfire one campout, I wouldn't run away from the subject. But I would be very cautious in what I said, sticking mostly to the clearly defined answers, or perhaps doing some reflective listening to help them process it themselves. I would also almost certainly ask them if they feel comfortable about talking to their parents about the subject, and encourage them to do so. I might even approach the dad afterwards, letting him know that his son is being inquisitive, and tell him he might want to broach the subject with him.

If I was asked to teach a lesson on the law of chastity (which I have had to do as a Gospel Doctrine teacher, but not with any youth), I would not hesitate to do so. However, my teaching style is that I try to relate the key principles being taught to their own lives, to make it more relevant and more interesting. Maybe talking about situations they might see in school, when hanging out with friends, etc. In this case, that might open a can of worms that I'm not sure I would want to have open. I might consider asking one parent of each child to attend, center the lesson on a discussion on chastity with the parents, and use it as an opportunity to encourage a continued discussion after church. (Obviously, I would forewarn the parents).

Again, in general principle, I agree with you to a fair degree, but it seems you've drawn a pretty clear line between the law of chastity and sex education, and I'm not so sure it is always so clear. And I definitely don't want church leaders to feel they have to run away from the subject, because who might my child turn to then? Hopefully me, but I can see that even if we have a good relationship, there might be questions/concerns they just don't want to come to me on.

Mothers who know raise children who don't masturbate.

So, you're admitting that you googled "masturbation"? I don't know if it's better or worse to admit you googled "kitten".

I'm happy to report that if you google "change oil" and BYU, CB shows up on the first page, while CG is on the second page.

I thought that was appropriate.