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-   -   what will BYU be ranked in the polls if it wins out? (http://www.cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22475)

MikeWaters 09-14-2008 08:15 PM
what will BYU be ranked in the polls if it wins out?
 
is it possible we could be ranked 2nd, if there is not more than 2 undefeated teams?

il Padrino Ute 09-14-2008 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 265327)
is it possible we could be ranked 2nd, if there is not more than 2 undefeated teams?
Never underestimate the bias against non-BCS teams.

Brian 09-14-2008 08:39 PM
Never underestimate the importance of schedule strength to BCS conf. voters.
Especially the SEC.

A two loss SEC team is more impressive that an unbeaten mid-major. Dick Harmon may be that stupid but the rest of the planet isn't.

ERCougar 09-14-2008 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian (Post 265346)
Never underestimate the importance of schedule strength to BCS conf. voters.
Especially the SEC.

A two loss SEC team is more impressive that an unbeaten mid-major. Dick Harmon may be that stupid but the rest of the planet isn't.
While I don't disagree with you, I read on CB that Fox was saying that BYU has to be considered in the Nat'l championship mix. I'm not ready to say that, but this win was big in getting us some attention. If enough people start to mention it, the idea becomes more fathomable.

If BYU decidedly wins all of their games and TCU and Utah beat everyone but BYU, there's a chance of No. 2.

MikeWaters 09-14-2008 09:08 PM
A team that is ranked 11th after week 3 ought to have a shot at #2 in the polls if it remains undefeated.

Cali Coug 09-14-2008 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 265351)
A team that is ranked 11th after week 3 ought to have a shot at #2 in the polls if it remains undefeated.
Wow- I actually agree. It would take the following to happen (I think):

1. BYU needs to win out, and the mov needs to be HUGE against almost everyone.
2. TCU and Utah need to win out (or at least one of them needs to and the other needs to have one loss to OU at the most). Preferably both are ranked in the top 10-15.
3. ECU needs to lose a game, or they need to have a few more tight ones like they did against Tulane.
4. Everyone ahead of BYU except for USC needs at least one loss. OU will be the hardest to take down. I don't see any SEC school going undefeated, certainly no Big East or Big 10 team or ACC team either.

BarbaraGordon 09-14-2008 09:21 PM
First off, just win. No point in worrying about the rest of it.

Second off, Brian is correct, a 1-loss USC or SEC will get the bid over almost any undefeated team in the country (seeing as how Ohio State already has a loss). So you guys need to be one of two or fewer undefeateds and have either USC/SEC with two losses.

SoonerCoug 09-14-2008 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 265352)
Wow- I actually agree. It would take the following to happen (I think):

1. BYU needs to win out, and the mov needs to be HUGE against almost everyone.
2. TCU and Utah need to win out (or at least one of them needs to and the other needs to have one loss to OU at the most). Preferably both are ranked in the top 10-15.
3. ECU needs to lose a game, or they need to have a few more tight ones like they did against Tulane.
4. Everyone ahead of BYU except for USC needs at least one loss. OU will be the hardest to take down. I don't see any SEC school going undefeated, certainly no Big East or Big 10 team or ACC team either.
Wrong. OU needs two losses. Basically everyone ahead of BYU needs two losses, and some teams that are behind BYU need two losses.

Brian 09-14-2008 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 265351)
A team that is ranked 11th after week 3 ought to have a shot at #2 in the polls if it remains undefeated.
Sure, if they have some quality wins. But, that possibility doesn't exist with your schedule.

And it never will in the mwc.

Brian 09-14-2008 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERCougar (Post 265348)
While I don't disagree with you, I read on CB that Fox was saying that BYU has to be considered in the Nat'l championship mix. I'm not ready to say that, but this win was big in getting us some attention. If enough people start to mention it, the idea becomes more fathomable.

If BYU decidedly wins all of their games and TCU and Utah beat everyone but BYU, there's a chance of No. 2.
Maybe a chance out to 8 decimal places, but not realistically.

Maybe if everyone in the SEC has 4 losses.
But then we are back to 8 decimal places.

SteelBlue 09-14-2008 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 265352)
2. TCU and Utah need to win out (or at least one of them needs to and the other needs to have one loss to OU at the most).
Are you forgetting that they have to play each other? Or am I misunderstanding you here?

Coach McGuirk 09-14-2008 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian (Post 265358)
Sure, if they have some quality wins. But, that possibility doesn't exist with your schedule.

And it never will in the mwc.
I think most years you would be right, but if TCU somehow beat OU (hey I was saying the same thing last night about UNLV ASU) and Utah wins out. That showdown would be between to highly ranked undefeated teams with, if not quality wins, high profile wins. I think that it is possible, but not likely.

BarbaraGordon 09-14-2008 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian (Post 265359)
Maybe a chance out to 8 decimal places, but not realistically.

Maybe if everyone in the SEC has 4 losses.
But then we are back to 8 decimal places.
You're overstating the bias. The human voters have the ability to determine the final standings. That's what we saw happen last year.

If the SEC teams have two losses and BYU is undefeated with wins over two Pac-10 teams and Utah, BYU will make the championship game.

Brian 09-14-2008 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach McGuirk (Post 265363)
I think most years you would be right, but if TCU somehow beat OU (hey I was saying the same thing last night about UNLV ASU) and Utah wins out. That showdown would be between to highly ranked undefeated teams with, if not quality wins, high profile wins. I think that it is possible, but not likely.
The rest of the country doesn't see it that way. They see utah, byu and tcu as good teams in a bad conference, unlv as a fluke. Even highly ranked, they are not seen as "really good", really good enough to play for the NC.
Beating Mississippi St by 21 is a lot different than beating wyoming by 21. It just is. And voters know it. Playing relatively bad teams week in and week out is not going to fool anyone.

And no, I didn't think utah should have played for the NC in 05. I don't think they were the 2nd best team in the nation. And neither did anyone else.

MikeWaters 09-14-2008 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon (Post 265371)
You're overstating the bias. The human voters have the ability to determine the final standings. That's what we saw happen last year.

If the SEC teams have two losses and BYU is undefeated with wins over two Pac-10 teams and Utah, BYU will make the championship game.
at the very least, it will create the biggest controversy in BCS history.

I think Utah's experience would also favor BYU. That is, with UM and Alex Smith.

However, I think that all the forces in the world would align against BYU and prevent it if at all possible.

MikeWaters 09-14-2008 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian (Post 265373)
The rest of the country doesn't see it that way. They see utah, byu and tcu as good teams in a bad conference, unlv as a fluke. Even highly ranked, they are not seen as "really good", really good enough to play for the NC.
Beating Mississippi St by 21 is a lot different than beating wyoming by 21. It just is. And voters know it. Playing relatively bad teams week in and week out is not going to fool anyone.

And no, I didn't think utah should have played for the NC in 05. I don't think they were the 2nd best team in the nation. And neither did anyone else.
STFU Brian. Take your sh** back to where you came from.

Brian 09-14-2008 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon (Post 265371)
You're overstating the bias. The human voters have the ability to determine the final standings. That's what we saw happen last year.

If the SEC teams have two losses and BYU is undefeated with wins over two Pac-10 teams and Utah, BYU will make the championship game.
Ok, maybe it's 6 decimal places.


You live outside the bubble, you know how the mwc is perceived. Two wins over two apparently poor Pac-10 teams and running the table in a mediocre conference is not going to fool anyone.

And there is fixing to do, nobody is going to forget the penalty on UW.

BarbaraGordon 09-14-2008 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 265375)
However, I think that all the forces in the world would align against BYU and prevent it if at all possible.
No way. I mean, I understand a little persecution complex is justified, but you guys are taking this way too far.

Either way, just win. It'll take care of itself if you just keep winning.

il Padrino Ute 09-14-2008 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon (Post 265379)
No way. I mean, I understand a little persecution complex is justified, but you guys are taking this way too far.

Either way, just win. It'll take care of itself if you just keep winning.
We MWC folks aren't taking it too far. Remember, the BCS exists in part because of BYU's 1984 season. The big boys hated that somebody else won it.

TripletDaddy 09-14-2008 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 265375)
at the very least, it will create the biggest controversy in BCS history.

I think Utah's experience would also favor BYU. That is, with UM and Alex Smith.

However, I think that all the forces in the world would align against BYU and prevent it if at all possible.
Why would an undefeated BYU being left out of the championship game create a bigger controversy than an undefeated Auburn being left out? Nobody is going to get up in arms about a non-BCS team getting the shaft.

il Padrino Ute 09-14-2008 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TripletDaddy (Post 265383)
Why would an undefeated BYU being left out of the championship game create a bigger controversy than an undefeated Auburn being left out? Nobody is going to get up in arms about a non-BCS team getting the shaft.
Exactly.

And remember, the same year Auburn got the snub in favor of Oklahoma - who got routed by USC - when the final polls came out, Utah was still behind OK in the final rankings, despite being undefeated.

BCS teams will always get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to rankings.

ERCougar 09-14-2008 10:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian (Post 265373)
The rest of the country doesn't see it that way. They see utah, byu and tcu as good teams in a bad conference, unlv as a fluke. Even highly ranked, they are not seen as "really good", really good enough to play for the NC.
Beating Mississippi St by 21 is a lot different than beating wyoming by 21. It just is. And voters know it. Playing relatively bad teams week in and week out is not going to fool anyone.

And no, I didn't think utah should have played for the NC in 05. I don't think they were the 2nd best team in the nation. And neither did anyone else.

Wrong...
There were plenty of people who thought that Utah should have played for the national championship in 05. I lived in Indiana and Michigan, ND and Big Ten country, and there were plenty of people that were complaining Utah didn't get a chance at the NC.

ERCougar 09-14-2008 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TripletDaddy (Post 265383)
Why would an undefeated BYU being left out of the championship game create a bigger controversy than an undefeated Auburn being left out? Nobody is going to get up in arms about a non-BCS team getting the shaft.
Partially right...It wouldn't be a bigger controversy than Auburn's snub. But it would be talked about.

TripletDaddy 09-14-2008 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute (Post 265386)
Exactly.

And remember, the same year Auburn got the snub in favor of Oklahoma - who got routed by USC - when the final polls came out, Utah was still behind OK in the final rankings, despite being undefeated.

BCS teams will always get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to rankings.
Correctamundo, Fonzarelli.

An objective look at BYU shows a team with a lot of promise, but so far we have beaten a Div AA team and 2 pac 10 teams that will be lucky to finish .500. I am really happy about the wins, but I don't get the amount of kool-aid drinking going on quite yet. Our schedule right now only has 1 ranked team on it.

We have lots of work to do. A good start would be to pound Wyoming.

TripletDaddy 09-14-2008 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERCougar (Post 265388)
Partially right...It wouldn't be a bigger controversy than Auburn's snub. But it would be talked about.
Agreed that it would be talked about.

"BYU got the shaft!"

"yes, but they played in a crappy conference and look at their SOS. Their OOC SOS didnt help them much this year, either."

"Good point"

I am going to enjoy this BYU run and not worry about "what if" scenarios. All BYU can do is win the next game on the schedule. Here's to hoping they hang another 50 on Wyoming.

Brian 09-14-2008 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERCougar (Post 265387)
Wrong...
There were plenty of people who thought that Utah should have played for the national championship in 05. I lived in Indiana and Michigan, ND and Big Ten country, and there were plenty of people that were complaining Utah didn't get a chance at the NC.
People who know what they are talking about?

Wow, you moved around a lot in 05. (c:

ERCougar 09-14-2008 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian (Post 265397)
People who know what they are talking about?

Wow, you moved around a lot in 05. (c:
Well, the same types that hang around on here. So--people who think they know what they're talking about.

The Big Ten may have the most obnoxiously arrogant fanbase in the country with so much to say about so little. Even from them, I heard a fair amount about Utah that year.

I moved that year from Indiana to Michigan (completed residency and took a new job).

Cali Coug 09-14-2008 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelBlue (Post 265362)
Are you forgetting that they have to play each other? Or am I misunderstanding you here?
Obviously I don't mean with respect to each other (just as BYU needs to beat both of them giving them both one loss too).

Brian 09-14-2008 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERCougar (Post 265400)
Well, the same types that hang around on here. So--people who think they know what they're talking about.

The Big Ten may have the most obnoxiously arrogant fanbase in the country with so much to say about so little. Even from them, I heard a fair amount about Utah that year.

I moved that year from Indiana to Michigan (completed residency and took a new job).
Interesting.

I misread and thought you included ND (North Dakota) in your list of states, so 3 states in a year seemed like a lot.

BarbaraGordon 09-14-2008 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute (Post 265382)
We MWC folks aren't taking it too far.
yes you are. I said, if you guys are undefeated and there's no undefeated or one-loss SEC team, you're in the title game. The jokers around here are saying everybody else would have to have four losses. That's absurd. I'm not denying the bias. I'm saying you're overstating it.

A lot has changed since Utah got shafted. Boise State made a statement for the little guys. People want to see the underdog get a chance.

But if you guys want to be taken seriously, you'd better start acting like you deserve to be taken seriously. You're not Sam Houston State - you're BYU. You've got a Heisman trophy winner and a friggin national title. Act like it.

Archaea 09-15-2008 12:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon (Post 265408)
yes you are. I said, if you guys are undefeated and there's no undefeated or one-loss SEC team, you're in the title game. The jokers around here are saying everybody else would have to have four losses. That's absurd. I'm not denying the bias. I'm saying you're overstating it.

A lot has changed since Utah got shafted. Boise State made a statement for the little guys. People want to see the underdog get a chance.

But if you guys want to be taken seriously, you'd better start acting like you deserve to be taken seriously. You're not Sam Houston State - you're BYU. You've got a Heisman trophy winner and a friggin national title. Act like it.
I'm not exactly afraid of what will happen but I'm not certain I really want BYU playing USC in the NC game. None of the other teams really impress me besides maybe OU and Florida.

ute4ever 09-15-2008 12:38 AM
BYU's season ends on November 22. Suppose they are ranked #2 at that point. Will they keep that position on November 29 and December 6 when there are games such as the Big 12 Championship featuring Oklahoma/Texas vs. Missouri, and the SEC Championship featuring Florida/Georgia vs. Auburn, etc.?

"Although #3 Florida just defeated #5 Georgia to move to 12-1, I remain more impressed with BYU's last second win over #9 Utah two weeks ago, and additionally their crushing of unranked UCLA back in September stands out in my mind over Oklahoma's recent wins against Texas, Nebraska, Kansas and Missouri...."

Archaea 09-15-2008 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ute4ever (Post 265418)
BYU's season ends on November 22. Suppose they are ranked #2 at that point. Will they keep that position on November 29 and December 6 when there are games such as the Big 12 Championship featuring Oklahoma/Texas vs. Missouri, and the SEC Championship featuring Florida/Georgia vs. Auburn, etc.?

"Although #3 Florida just defeated #5 Georgia to move to 12-1, I remain more impressed with BYU's last second win over #9 Utah two weeks ago, and additionally their crushing of unranked UCLA back in September stands out in my mind over Oklahoma's recent wins against Texas, Nebraska, Kansas and Missouri...."
That's an excellent point that BYU didn't face in 1984.

BarbaraGordon 09-15-2008 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ute4ever (Post 265418)
"Although #3 Florida just defeated #5 Georgia to move to 12-1"
if an SEC team makes it with 1-loss you're SOL.

But conference championship games could actually help you because they're likely to result in an upset. That's why conferences like B12 and SEC get so pissy about the setup of the Pac-10 and B10.

TripletDaddy 09-15-2008 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ute4ever (Post 265418)
BYU's season ends on November 22. Suppose they are ranked #2 at that point. Will they keep that position on November 29 and December 6 when there are games such as the Big 12 Championship featuring Oklahoma/Texas vs. Missouri, and the SEC Championship featuring Florida/Georgia vs. Auburn, etc.?

"Although #3 Florida just defeated #5 Georgia to move to 12-1, I remain more impressed with BYU's last second win over #9 Utah two weeks ago, and additionally their crushing of unranked UCLA back in September stands out in my mind over Oklahoma's recent wins against Texas, Nebraska, Kansas and Missouri...."
BYU has gone undefeated, what?...once?

And now everyone is lamenting that we will get screwed in January, wondering who we should play for a championship, etc, all because we are 3-0.....LOL.

We are truly small time when a 3-0 start gets everyone this crazy with excitement.

ute4ever 09-15-2008 01:18 AM
USC dropped from 2nd to 3rd in the final regular season BCS standings of 2003 when LSU won the SEC Championship game and inched above them in percentage points. Same with Florida over Michigan in 2006, and LSU over Georgia last year. Why should anybody think BYU would be safe at #2 or even at #1 on November 22?

On a similar note, last year Missouri was ranked #1 going into the final weekend of the season, lost to #9 Oklahoma in the Big 12 title game, fell to #7 and was shut out of the 10-spot BCS altogether because frankly, none of the bowls wanted them.

On another similar note, Texas got the Rose Bowl invite over Cal in 2004 largely due to campaigning by Mack Brown.

MikeWaters 09-15-2008 01:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ute4ever (Post 265424)
USC dropped from 2nd to 3rd in the final regular season BCS standings of 2003 when LSU won the SEC Championship game and inched above them in percentage points. Same with Florida over Michigan in 2006, and LSU over Georgia last year. Why should anybody think BYU would be safe at #2 or even at #1?

On a similar note, last year Missouri was ranked #1 going into the final weekend of the season (Championship Saturday), lost to #9 Oklahoma in the Big 12 title game, fell to #7 and was shut out of the 10-spot BCS altogether because frankly, none of the bowls wanted them.

On another similar note, Texas got the Rose Bowl invite over Cal in 2004 primarily due to campaigning by Mack Brown.
If any of those coaches had the direct backing of God, let me know.

I think our coach is a little bit different than those.

FMCoug 09-15-2008 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 265426)
If any of those coaches had the direct backing of God, let me know.

I think our coach is a little bit different than those.

LOL. Wow you really have drunk the kool-aid. Welcome aboard!

TripletDaddy 09-15-2008 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 265426)
If any of those coaches had the direct backing of God, let me know.

I think our coach is a little bit different than those.
I don't know what you have been eating/drinking lately, but you are averaging a really funny zinger about once a day now.

I am considering stealing some of your material.

ute4ever 09-15-2008 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 265426)
If any of those coaches had the direct backing of God, let me know.

I think our coach is a little bit different than those.
I can see it now: as 100 sportswriters mull over their final ballots on December 5, through their coffee, caffeine and nicotene polluted minds (the horror! Such unclean vessels!) they keep feeling impressed with BYU and one by one, rank them either #1 or #2.... and as a result of this blessing, many true and faithful scriptoral literalists decide that maybe an unclean mortal CAN indeed receive inspiration from the scorekeeping, unwavering spirit after all, so long as that inspiration is designed to benefit the clean and able elders of Israel....


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