Hand Over Heart
 

So, I guess Barack didn't put his hand over his heart during the national anthem.

http://www.slate.com/id/2177887/?GT1=10636

I never do. It seems fascist. Is this really a big deal to people? I'll stand; I'll take my hat off; but the hand-salute stuff for civilians creeps me out.

Sieg heart! Sieg heart!

What the hades. I am OK with you not doing it, but "it seems fascist"??? Are we moving to that point where not only do people not get ciriticized for not following traditions, but now we move onto using those kind of terms for those that do.

What's next. "What's with people who never burn our American Flag. It's seems like something only right wing skinheads wouldn't do."

I have no problem with others doing it. I just don't like to because it seems to imitate the hand salutes of twentieth-century super-nationalistic fascists.

Put your hand on your heart and say it, say it, say it again.

I don't think it should be a law, but I truly doubt that you can't distinguish the purpose, sentiment and intention of placing your hand over your heart during the national anthem or pledge of allegiance from a sieg heil or a sieg mussolini or whichever fascist salute you're thinking of. Don't misunderstand, you're entitled to your opinion and I don't criticize you for having it, but I think it is based more in youth than anything else (I say this as someone who, some years ago, also refused to engage in this act for similar reasons; for me, it passed).

What about continuing to walk to class while the National Anthem is being played over loudspeakers on campus? What about cutting corners through the grass while doing so?

I attended but one year at BYU and made it a point to not only keep walking but to walk more ostentatiously when they played the anthem. what was my point? Not sure, just felt like doing it. WOuld I do it now? probably not.

I rigged it so that I didn't have any classes that ended at 5PM.

I don't mind the national anthem too much (although yes, I kept walking when they played it at BYU), but the pledge of allegiance is extremely creepy to me. Even ignoring the separation of church and state issues, pledging allegiance to anything, let alone a piece of cloth, seems like something members of an enlightened society would want to avoid.

If you run for president of these United States, I suggest you do so. I'd also bone up on the pledge. Votes like that kind of thing.

I think that's annoying when people kept walking during the anthem at BYU. For me it's less about showing respect for the actual hymn, and more about taking a minute to stop what you're doing and be grateful for where you are and what's you've been given.

Have you no understanding of symbolism?

At our country's holiest of holies military institutions there are some very strange subcultural habits. The effort we would often go to avoid having to lock it up for reveille, retirment of the colors or taps was nothing short of monumental. Usually if one was unable to get inside of the barracks when retirement was played would result in being bombarded with all sorts of debris as one stood fully erect presenting arms. I once got hit in the nose with a hostess cupcake, but true to my general orders I continued to stay at my post. I felt like a porn star.

Sad that even those of us discharged with protecting democracy's fragile peace and livin' large on the US Taxpayers demonstrated the same disrespectful intentions at the mormon church's Academy.

However, I bet your chicks were hotter and probably even put out more.

Of course, the real issue here is that not doing so costs him votes.

On the surface, I don't think it differs all that much from fascist salutes from the early 20th century. There used to be an Olympic salute that athletes would do when they won in the modern games. In 1936, Jesse Owens didn't know what to do because the Olympic salute was the same as the Nazi salute. So, he gave an awkward military salute instead.

http://www.grizedale.org/2007/03/17/...02-293x400.jpg

I think the salute (and, consequently for me, putting hand over heart) is just one more thing that the Nazis screwed up for everyone (like the swastika).

I'm a patriotic person; I've served my country. I just don't like physical salute (for civilians), as if a gesture somehow conveys additional nationalistic devotion. I have no problem if others do it, but I haven't done it for several years. I stand for the national anthem. I'll say the pledge of allegiance. But I leave my hands at my sides.

That's essentially my question - is this the kind of thing that bugs a lot of people, or is it a non-issue?

This leads to a different question that I think we're missing. It's not, "Would I do it?" but "Do I want my President doing it?"

If I go to a basketball game and I don't put my hand over my heart for the national anthem, or the guy 6 seats down from me doesn't, or whatever ... what's the real impact? I'm just one man. The President on the other hand is not just a man ... it's a symbol, an office, and a position that comes with considerable pomp and ceremony.

Whether you like it or not, hand-over-the-heart is a standard sign of respect for the symbols of the country and the sacrifices they represent. You can not do so and still inwardly respect those sacrifices, just like you can have a mohawk, 7 tattoos, and a tongue-piercing and still be a inwardly be Mother Teresa. But people make judgments on what you do, and sometimes it is the small things that matter.

I won't be making my judgment on who to vote for based on this issue, but I think it can belie a deeper misunderstanding about the office of the Presidency.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit. Even if you assume that the flag represents the nation, which I find quite silly, and which isn't necessarily supported in the text, since "and to the republic for which it stands" is mentioned separately, pledging allegiance to the nation doesn't sit well with me.

If it said something like "I pledge allegiance to the values of the United States, as long as they are not corrupted by our politicians..." then maybe, but even then those values would have to be enumerated.

I'm not a fan of the word "fascist," as it gets tossed around so much, but the forced recitation of a brainless nationalistic oath seems to fit the definition. Luckily, the laws concerning its recitation are no longer enforced, but the idea is the same.

Obviously.

But I was wondering if other people think this is a big deal. You say it can be a big deal - sure; otherwise, CNN.com would have nothing to write about. But is it a big deal to individuals? Do you (or anyone else) care personally if a candidate for president doesn't do it?

Should it be a big deal? No.

Might it be a symbolic deal and therefore be an issue tipping things against a candidate? Of course.

However, it is important for an elected representative to be respectful of our history and of symbols. It would be wise to pay respect to those symbols in a manner that tradition and the public expect.

Here's how I look at it. Will people be offended if it doesn't accord with tradition? If yes, then don't offend.

Will people offended if I place my hand over the heart? Probably not.

So what do pragmatics dictate?

Of course, if one is aware of that and intending to offend, then don't take offense at receiving the expected and desired response.

As I said, I wouldn't base my judge solely on that reason, but it would draw doubt in my mind if the man truly understands the office.

woot's modified Pledge:

I pledge allegiance to a few of the values--the one's I agree with anyway--of the United States of America, and not to that dumb flag which represents it (because it's just a stupid piece of cloth) or to the Republic for which it stands 'cause they've done a lot of crap over the years like slavery and New Coke, one nation, under God unless you don't believe in him, indivisible except when Bush is president (he didn't really win anyway), with liberty and justice for all.

Those that have the money to afford it.

If the flag isn't a symbol of the nation than what exactly do you think it does symbolize...or is this where you revert back to the piece of fabric bit?

So in essence you have a problem with a commitment of loyalty to your country, because you disagree with some of the politics?

I would be interested when the tradition of hand over heart came into existence. I doubt doing symbolic things origninated with the Nazi's. I think the Romans saluted, probably the Eqyptians had symbolic gestures.

Some gestures are good and some are bad, ask coach Glenn.

Pretty much. I put being a world citizen far above being an American citizen. I don't find any benefit in nationalism, and I find lots of detriment. As for the flag, again, I'm aware that the flag is a symbol of the nation, and this is useful for various visual purposes. Verbally pledging allegiance to a flag just seems really stupid when it isn't any more difficult to pledge allegiance to the actual country.

What the heck is a world citizen. It sounds cool enough.

I am actually myself am a citizen of the Universe. I find no benefit in involving myself in planetism.

I mean these are things that you really contemplate?

I could give a rats ass whether someone sings during the national anthem, puts their hand over their heart, stops walking or not while the pledge of allegiance is going on, comparing it to nazi symbols, putting all kinds of bizarro philosophical thought into......etc,,etc,,etc.

Some of you are just odd as hell.

You have to remember Rocky, some people on this board have an IQ over 103. Calm down. Those with an IQ over 103 have varied interests and like to discuss them.

Ahh that explains your dyslexia then. 301 >> 103. ;)

If you had big tits, a nice smile and could walk right in a swimsuit this type of bullshit could make you Miss Universe, as I would hate to start with the parochial miss amerika. ;)

LOL!

This reminds me of the end of Sleeper, when Woody Allen's character is being deprogrammed and he hallucinates that he's Miss Wyoming in the final round of the Miss America contest. He's asked some inane question and he responds with unctuous diction: "It is my hope that there will be peace for ALL mankind, be they white, be they black, be they whatever." He went on to win.

It seems anyone unwilling to pledge "liberty and justice for all" would fall into the fascist camp. Isn't that the definition of fascism?

Who is Woody Allen?
 

Sounds like someone from Goat's porn collection.

As it is, woot is campaigning to be the most unpopular person wherever he resides. Due to his charming nature, whether he's right or wrong nobody will care.

He tells Mormons he hates Mormonism, farts on the air conditioner and proclaims he's smarter and younger than the rest of us.

And now he's proud that he hates the symbols of his mother country. I wouldn't be surprised he also wears shirts with Che and Castro on it, but does so in the comfort of government grants and loans, opining how the "Man" has oppressed the masses, including good people such Kim Il Song and Iranian ayatollahs. After that he sips coffee at Starbucks, laughs about the bourgeois capitalists and tells stories about the good ole days of Che, Stalin and Mao.

I probably shouldn't even respond to this, but just in case Archaea thinks any of this is based on fact rather than the delusions of his tiny brain, allow me to note that there's nothing in that pathetic little post that has any basis in reality, and that Archaea seems to have begun stalking me just as he stalks Tex. Get help, man. You're not well.

I agree that anyone who doesn't believe in "liberty and justice for all" is in the moral valley, but I don't think there's a correlation between acting morally and one's willingness to chant pledges about acting morally. Bush loves to give lip service to the constitution these days, but that doesn't mean he actually acts in accordance with it.

At least you're not putting words in his mouth.

From the tone of your response, it sounds like Archaea registered a direct hit.

Are you and Archaea in the same section of remedial pretend psychology?