In one of my BYU wards, a member of the Stake Presidency came one week and I remember him saying that opening prayers should be no longer than 2 minutes and closing ones no longer than 30 seconds. I continue to live by those wise words.

I see that neither R nor SU addressed the "don't ask don't tell" nature of the Boy Scout policy.

It's funny how there are so few obstacles on ones way to complete selfishness and narcissism.

But on the other hand, so many on the way to serving the next generation.

What exactly is the current BSA policy? Is it similar to the military policy, of don't ask, don't tell?

Without opening upon the proverbial can, why would an organization's position on gays, if it is otherwise commendable, be reason to exclude it?

I understand why one would take that position if it currently discriminating against racial, ethnic or religious minorities. These groups have received real mistreatment, as a groups, and are easily identifiable. Gays aren't somebody invited or captured to be brought here. There are part of an economic class and don't provide benefit qua characteristic.

Ah well. People seek causes, that one makes no sense.

I didn't address the point because I have been resisting the urge to turn this thread into yet another drawn out debate about gay issues and the church. I did too much to turn it in that direction from the start, and I regretted that, and I have been trying to show a modicum of restraint. I appreciate what you are doing out there Mike.

As for the 'don't ask don't tell' policy, I think it stands in the face of being, 'Trustworthy... loyal... obedient... and brave...'

It is funny how many people in the church don't think those things matter... or rather, they mean something very different to many members. The stake president came over to our house last Sunday, to check in on us. We had a nice conversation to clarify our position in the church. He asked me if I wanted to have my name removed from the records of the church. I told him that I wasn't sure that I wanted to take that step, and because it would hurt my parents, that I had decided to postpone making that choice for now. He asked, "Why would your parents have to know?" Don't ask don't tell. I told him, "That isn't the kind of relationship I have with my parents. We talk about things. At this point in life I couldn't NOT tell them. We have an open and honest relationship." Nice guy, our stake president. He was recently called. A young guy. I told him that I appreciate that the church does a lot of good in the world, and that I hoped he enjoyed the incredible opportunity to serve others. I meant it. I mean that for you too Mike. Enjoy serving those kids.

R.