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-   -   Now that the LDS Church has raised the (http://www.cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12909)

Tex 10-18-2007 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos (Post 137945)
Not necessarily just that, but that's part of it. And the vague language about missionaries needing to be worthy obviously doesn't need to change, only the implementation of it. But that specific language leaves little room for interpretation and excludes some worthy young men who would contribute to the cause.

Somehow I doubt the number of repentant, worthy former multiple-partner adulterer/fornicators prohibited from service is so great as to have any appreciable impact on the work. Call me crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug (Post 138019)
And I think this is what the Church means when they say "raising the bar." I think they're saying that they don't want to send out non-virgin missionaries.

If someone sincerely wants to serve a mission, and prior bad behavior has been forsaken, I say let them serve.

With the exception of the circumstance santos points out, this is already the policy. Assuming they have demonstrated proper repentance, they may serve.

---

As an aside, I should note that missionary service is not an entitlement as it seems to be treated here. There is great wisdom in calling those who have prepared themselves for the work and are desirous to serve God. Sending a boy into the field who is otherwise uncommitted, unprepared, or unworthy hoping that the mission will affect him positively is a dangerous crapshoot. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it results in a bunch of SoonerCoug-style mission stories.

If a boy is not properly prepared or worthy by 19, let the priesthood work with him closely until he is ready, and then send him later. Not the other way around.

jay santos 10-18-2007 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex (Post 138061)
Somehow I doubt the number of repentant, worthy former multiple-partner adulterer/fornicators prohibited from service is so great as to have any appreciable impact on the work. Call me crazy.

I don't know. It would have eliminated several missionaries in my mission, including the best AP we had. It would eliminated Corianton and probably Alma and Paul, maybe Enos, possibly Joseph Smith, depending on the timing of the marriage to Fannie Alger.

Tex 10-18-2007 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos (Post 138085)
I don't know. It would have eliminated several missionaries in my mission, including the best AP we had. It would eliminated Corianton and probably Alma and Paul, maybe Enos, possibly Joseph Smith, depending on the timing of the marriage to Fannie Alger.

Really? Please, enlighten me. I'd like to read the passages of the Book of Mormon that state Corianton, Alma, and Enos had multiple-partners, one long-term extramarital partner, or a homosexual partner.

Ditto Paul and the Bible.

The Joseph Smith argument we've already had, and can leave for another day.

jay santos 10-18-2007 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex (Post 138094)
Really? Please, enlighten me. I'd like to read the passages of the Book of Mormon that state Corianton, Alma, and Enos had multiple-partners, one long-term extramarital partner, or a homosexual partner.

Ditto Paul and the Bible.

The Joseph Smith argument we've already had, and can leave for another day.

The handbook implies more than once with one partner, so you do it more than once regardless of same partner or two, you're out.

Paul murdered Stephen, I'd say it counts. Enos wrestles with the Lord to receive remission of sins, this is before he has witness of the gospel. I'm assuming here. How many young adults do you know with no witness of the gospel where a wrestle with God is required to retain forgiveness have abstained from sex?

Alma 36:13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for
which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I
had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy
commandments.

Alma 36:14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or
rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great
had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the
presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

Probably safe to say Alma's sins were at least as serious as having sex twice. It's a stretch to assume he was abtaining from sex during this sinful rampage.

Corianton: We know he did it once. Did he do it twice? I guess we don't know. Not a stretch to assume he did, though, right?

How many other apostles and prophets or missionaries had sex more than once before they obtained their witness of the gospel?



Indy Coug 10-18-2007 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos (Post 138106)
The handbook implies more than once with one partner, so you do it more than once regardless of same partner or two, you're out.

Paul murdered Stephen, I'd say it counts. Enos wrestles with the Lord to receive remission of sins, this is before he has witness of the gospel. I'm assuming here. How many young adults do you know with no witness of the gospel where a wrestle with God is required to retain forgiveness have abstained from sex?

Alma 36:13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for
which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I
had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy
commandments.

Alma 36:14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or
rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great
had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the
presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

Probably safe to say Alma's sins were at least as serious as having sex twice. It's a stretch to assume he was abtaining from sex during this sinful rampage.

Corianton: We know he did it once. Did he do it twice? I guess we don't know. Not a stretch to assume he did, though, right?

How many other apostles and prophets or missionaries had sex more than once before they obtained their witness of the gospel?



I just get a kick out of you trying to attribute specific sins in the absence of any specifics. Maybe Alma the Younger was busy trying to talk bad about the leaders of the church on an internet messageboard in an effort to lead people away from the church.

Tex 10-18-2007 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug (Post 138113)
I just get a kick out of you trying to attribute specific sins in the absence of any specifics. Maybe Alma the Younger was busy trying to talk bad about the leaders of the church on an internet messageboard in an effort to lead people away from the church.

LOL.

BYU71 10-18-2007 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos (Post 138106)
The handbook implies more than once with one partner, so you do it more than once regardless of same partner or two, you're out.

Paul murdered Stephen, I'd say it counts. Enos wrestles with the Lord to receive remission of sins, this is before he has witness of the gospel. I'm assuming here. How many young adults do you know with no witness of the gospel where a wrestle with God is required to retain forgiveness have abstained from sex?

Alma 36:13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for
which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I
had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy
commandments.

Alma 36:14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or
rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great
had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the
presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

Probably safe to say Alma's sins were at least as serious as having sex twice. It's a stretch to assume he was abtaining from sex during this sinful rampage.

Corianton: We know he did it once. Did he do it twice? I guess we don't know. Not a stretch to assume he did, though, right?

How many other apostles and prophets or missionaries had sex more than once before they obtained their witness of the gospel?



I think if you actually took a look at leaders, non-religious, you will find most have a different opinion of sex than those who abscribe to religious right principles.

I myself abscribe and would teach the religious right principles on sex, but the fact is most leaders in their youth (outside of religious leaders) did not.

Tex 10-18-2007 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos (Post 138106)
The handbook implies more than once with one partner, so you do it more than once regardless of same partner or two, you're out.

I guess I'm gonna have to start bringing the handbook to work so I can dispel some of these myths you like to propagate. I'm pretty sure the phrase is "over an extended period of time" not "more than once" but I'll have to get back to you.

Either way, as Indy said, it's amusing to watch you make up stuff on the fly. Maybe you could get a job writing for Sooner.

Archaea 10-18-2007 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU71 (Post 138115)
I think if you actually took a look at leaders, non-religious, you will find most have a different opinion of sex than those who abscribe to religious right principles.

I myself abscribe and would teach the religious right principles on sex, but the fact is most leaders in their youth (outside of religious leaders) did not.

Most persons, outside of some discreet religious sects, do not.

Archaea 10-18-2007 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex (Post 138117)
I guess I'm gonna have to start bringing the handbook to work so I can dispel some of these myths you like to propagate. I'm pretty sure the phrase is "over an extended period of time" not "more than once" but I'll have to get back to you.

Either way, as Indy said, it's amusing to watch you make up stuff on the fly. Maybe you could get a job writing for Sooner.

It either uses that language or language about predatory conduct.

I can see youth, well, if I have it for four weeks that's not extended but eight weeks is.

Should bishops distribute charts?

Can you have sex just six times over four weeks? Does it count as one episode no matter how many times the couple orgasm? All sorts of wonderful analysis is possible.


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