Dauphine TT

[Quisqueyano]

1. Zabriskie
2. Leipheimer
3.Landis
4. Hicapie
Top four spots go to American riders.
How cool is that?

[creekster]

Very cool. I like Dave Z's comment when asked why Americans seem to excel a ITT he said sokmething like "maybe becasue unlike the Europeans we always start off ridding alone."

Zabriskie is awesome. It will also be interresting to see how Landis does on Ventoux. If he does well, he may really be in good position to do well in the TdF. I earlier wondered if he had peaked too early this year, but his form looks reasonably good now. Tomorrow will be very interesting in the Dauphine.

p.s. Q, I iwll hate myslef for doing this, and please take it in the best spirit possible, but did you notice Zabriskie's average speed, which speed was almost a minute faster than Landis on the course?

[Quisqueyano]

Your dragging up ancient history here. Don't worry about me taking it the wrong way.
He averaged over 30 MPH over a very long TT course. I would think this could be used as evidence either way to argue the very old argument.
In any case, Z is an animal. The fact that he is a hometown boy makes it all the better. Especially when you add the element of his recovery form that crash.
I am really excited about the headway that the Americans are making in cycling. The tag line on this forum says that Mercx built the house and Lance lived in it. I think that is way off base and a lot of what we are now enjoying (i.e. pissing off the European snobs), is owed To LA. Because of him, a whole new crop of kids is getting addicted to the greatest individual sport in the world.

[SteelBlue]

The tag line on this forum says that Mercx built the house and Lance lived in it. I think that is way off base and a lot of what we are now enjoying (i.e. pissing off the European snobs), is owed To LA. Because of him, a whole new crop of kids is getting addicted to the greatest individual sport in the world.

I don't follow. Are you arguing that Armstrong was better than Mercx? Or are you just saying that Lance did more than live in the house; he added on?

[Quisqueyano]

I think that when you look at what each one (or any other big American cyclist like LeMond) did for the sport, LA made the greatestcontribution. Before him cycling had it's hard core followers. But lance made it main stream. People started to care about the tdf. And lots were drawn to try it themselves. American cycling will have a much larger pool of talent to draw from. So it will get a higher caliber rider.

[creekster]

I think that when you look at what each one (or any other big American cyclist like LeMond) did for the sport, LA made the greatestcontribution. Before him cycling had it's hard core followers. But lance made it main stream. People started to care about the tdf. And lots were drawn to try it themselves. American cycling will have a much larger pool of talent to draw from. So it will get a higher caliber rider.

LA certainly put cycling over the top here in America, but Merckx is the king. No one has come close to his dominance in the sport.

[Quisqueyano]

LA certainly put cycling over the top here in America, but Merckx is the king. No one has come close to his dominance in the sport.

I would accept that argument if you are basing it on total victotires.
But LA seems almost super-human. Like he wins when he wants. If someone beat him it was because he let them. Peolple that competed against him talk of his ability to make the competition suffer. If you thought you could ride with him, you would pay dearly.
I just don't think you can judge a cyclist by the number of victories. Lie any athlete, you need to draw people to you and your sport. Lance did that better than anybody. He also sold a lot of bikes for Trek.

[creekster]

I would accept that argument if you are basing it on total victotires.
But LA seems almost super-human. Like he wins when he wants. If someone beat him it was because he let them. Peolple that competed against him talk of his ability to make the competition suffer. If you thought you could ride with him, you would pay dearly.
I just don't think you can judge a cyclist by the number of victories. Lie any athlete, you need to draw people to you and your sport. Lance did that better than anybody. He also sold a lot of bikes for Trek.

With all due respect, and I mean that, I must conclude only that you have never learned much about Merckx's career. His nickname was the Caniibal for a reason. He would devour people. HE won everyhting, and he won it in every conceivable way. In 69 he was accused of doping at the giro. This made him mad so he went to the TdF and he won by over 17 minutes. Plus he won the green jersey AND the polka dot jersey AND, if it had existed, he would have also won the white jersey. He won every frickin' jersey they had in that race! There were no tactics that year, he absolutely wiped out the field. The guy won 5 TdF (and would have won at least 6 but for a deranged french fan who sucker punched him in the kidneys during a climb), 5 Giros, a Vuelta, A bunch of Milan-San Remos, three or four World Champioships, a bunch of classics, a bunch of 6-day track races, and he set a new hour record by over 700 meters. Moreover, don't forget that one year the French told him not to come to the TdF becasue he was too dominant. Plus, the guy wa salmost killed in a bad track bike accident in 1969 yet still recovered to ride with dominance. Amazing.

Draw people to the sport? Maybe LA did this, although I am not so sure as well as you may think. He certainly drew people to watch a yank beat up on the French, but I hope you are right that this will translate into more long term interest and particiaption among americans. Merckx raced only in Europe and the sport was already fabulously popular, so I am not too sure how one would measure his ability to draw people to the sport. I do know he turned bike racing into a pseudo-religion in his native Belgium.

This is an argument no one can really win or lose, and Merckx himself has said it is folly to compare riders from different eras. As much as I like LA as an athlete (although he is a jerk as a person, IMO) Merckx is still the King of bike riding. LA may have renovated the house, but Merckx definitely built it.

[Quisqueyano]

Creekster, I concede every one of your points. Mercx was great. And you just taught me a few things that I did not know about him.
You are right that this argument can't be won. It comes down to personal opinion.
I will only reiterate that it seems that cycling is finally starting to get a foot hold in the US. aAnd I couldn't be happier. There are several great american riders. And I hope that Tyler Hamiltion rides again when the suspension is lifted in Sep.

[creekster]

Tyler is an interesting case. I have always liked him and hoped he would succeed, and his ride in the Tour with a broken cololarbone was very impressive and girtty. That being said, it sure looks to me like he was a cheater. I have read everything I can about the guy and his case and I find his defensdes to be almost silly. In fact, if somebody like Fignon (who was famously dour and unpleasant) asserted such things even the French would laugh at him.

All I can say, I guess, is that I hope he is clean, or at least stays clean, and that he will race again, becasue he seems like a very nice guy.

[creekster]

In the interest of full disclosure, I should probabyl reveal that when I was a teen in the mid seventies I lived in Belgium for a few years where Merckx was treated like a descneded resident of Olympus. I am sure this colored my thinking about him.

[Quisqueyano]

Tyler is an interesting case. I have always liked him and hoped he would succeed, and his ride in the Tour with a broken cololarbone was very impressive and girtty. That being said, it sure looks to me like he was a cheater. I have read everything I can about the guy and his case and I find his defensdes to be almost silly. In fact, if somebody like Fignon (who was famously dour and unpleasant) asserted such things even the French would laugh at him.

All I can say, I guess, is that I hope he is clean, or at least stays clean, and that he will race again, becasue he seems like a very nice guy.


I agree about his defense. I think for the most part he was trying to create a viable doubt. I think the process was at least worth questioning.
It doesn't matter now anyway. He has paid the price. I just hope he does't decide he's too old I would like to see him come back.
If for no other reason that to add to the stable of awesome American riders.

[SteelBlue]

In the interest of full disclosure, I should probabyl reveal that when I was a teen in the mid seventies I lived in Belgium for a few years where Merckx was treated like a descneded resident of Olympus. I am sure this colored my thinking about him.

And I must admit that I served my mission in Belgium. However, I don't think you'll find too many that will argue that LA was a better overall rider.

[Archaea]

There are many great riders.

Eddie is the chief mentioned by most cycling fanatics as the best ever.

The other five time TdF winners were also great but Eddie was dominant.

Lance changed the face of riding, from broad to more focused. He brought science and regiment to it.

For Americans who were sleeping during the Merckx era, Lance is the face of cycling. For Europe, each country has its champion.

France maybe Hinault, Italy hard to say, Spain what's his hame oh that bugs me, Germany Ullrich, Denmark Rijs and so forth.

IT would have been fun to see each in their prime, Merckx versus Armstrong.

[creekster]

Spain what's his hame oh that bugs me,


Indurain.

WIth time I thinnk even most French will concede that Merckx was the best.

Don't forget coppi and anquetil as you assemble your pantheon.

[Quisqueyano]

Indurain.

WIth time I thinnk even most French will concede that Merckx was the best.

Don't forget coppi and anquetil as you assemble your pantheon.

I think Pantani needs to be in there too.

[creekster]

I think Pantani needs to be in there too.

You do raise the hard questions. He was dominant in 98, when he won both the giro and the TdF, but after they started to implement stricter drug testing his career fell of the face of the earth. He ttestedpositive with very high hematpocrit levels at least twice and given his sad death and the circumstance sof his last few years, I think it is very likely he was also a cheater.

Looking past this issue, however, he was very impressive for a few years, but I am not sure his carrer was sufficiaently sustained to put him up there with those that have been mentioned.

[SteelBlue]

and given his sad death


I'm trying to remember. Was it a cocaine overdose?

[creekster]

I'm trying to remember. Was it a cocaine overdose?
Cocaine intoxication but there were other drugs in his system at the time. Plus he left a note that was both cryptic and clear about his career.

He was the rare pure climber that won a grand tour (and more than just one, mind you).

[bluegoose]

I am a child among men when it comes to cycling history. That comes with having only ridden seriously for a couple of years now.

Thanks for the tutorial. I've heard much talk of Merckx over the past several years, but didn't know much of what creekster wrote about. 17 minutes in the Tour??? They sure make a big deal about Lance's domination when he wins by 7 minutes.

Poor Axl. Its got to be tough to be the son of a legend, especially if you are in the same field as dear old dad.

[Archaea]

goose, hey, I only studied it cuz it was interesting.

I have only two years of cycling knowledge, but like many other things I immerse myself in its culture and lap it up.